On a crisp April morning in 1942, the USS Hornet set the stage for a historic and audacious military operation—the Doolittle Raid. This daring mission involved launching B-25 Mitchell bombers from an aircraft carrier, a feat never before accomplished. Scott and Jen delve into the intricacies of this operation and its strategic significance during World War II. The episode highlights the leadership of Lieutenant Colonel James Doolittle, who orchestrated the raid to boost American morale following the devastating attack on Pearl Harbor. The psychological impact on the Japanese was profound, as it shattered their illusion of invulnerability and forced them to reconsider their military strategies. As the bombers struck Tokyo and other cities, the crew faced precarious circumstances, with many aircraft forced to land in China after completing their mission. Despite the challenges, 69 of the 80 airmen returned home, marking the Doolittle Raid as a pivotal moment in the war, demonstrating American ingenuity and resolve.
Jen shares her personal experience flying in a B-25 during a recent airshow, illustrating the aircraft’s legacy and versatility. The conversation unveils fascinating details about the B-25’s design, its extensive use across various theaters of war, and its celebrated role in the Doolittle Raid. Jen recounts the thrill of sitting in the nose of the aircraft, surrounded by the iconic plexiglass, feeling connected to history as she took to the skies. The episode weaves together historical insights with personal stories, creating a vivid tapestry that celebrates the B-25’s enduring significance in aviation and military history, while also emphasizing the importance of preserving such legacies for future generations.
Transcript
B-25
[00:00:00] The Daring Doolittle Raid Begins
[00:00:00] Scott: On a crisp April morning in 1942, the USS Hornet sailed quietly through the Pacific waters. Aboard the aircraft carrier, 16 B 25 Mitchell medium bombers stood ready, their crews tense with anticipation. This was the beginning of the Doolittle Raid, a daring mission that would change the course of World War II.
[00:00:25] Lieutenant Colonel James H. Doolittle, the mastermind behind the operation, paced the deck. The plan was audacious, to launch bombers from a carrier to strike the Japanese homeland, a feat never before attempted. As dawn broke, the signal came. Army pilots, man your planes. With a roar of engines, the first bomber lurched down the short runway, and against all odds it lifted off followed by 15 more.
[00:00:51] As they disappeared on into the horizon, the crew of the Hornet held their breath, knowing the Raiders faced a perilous journey with little chance of return.
[00:01:02] Impact and Aftermath of the Raid
[00:01:02] Scott: Hours later, the bombers reached Japan. They struck military and industrial targets in Tokyo and other cities, catching the enemy completely by surprise.
[00:01:12] The physical damage was minimal, but the psychological impact was immense. For the first time, the Japanese people realized they were not invulnerable. As fuel ran low for the bombers, the crews aimed their aircraft towards China. Some crash landed, others bailed out. Many were aided by Chinese civilians and soldiers, while some were captured by the Japanese.
[00:01:33] Despite the risks, 69 of the 80 airmen survived the mission. The Doolittle Raid, while tactically limited, proved to be a strategic and morale boosting triumph for the United States. It forced Japan to recall forces for home defense and precipitated the fateful decision to attack Midway, a battle that would turn the tide of the war in the Pacific.
[00:01:56] As news of the raid spread, a wave of jubilation swept across America, and daring aviators had delivered a powerful message. Even in the darkest hours, light the way to victory. And the B 25 lit the way.
[00:02:21] Introduction to Talk With History Podcast
[00:02:21] Scott: Welcome to Talk With History. I’m your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen. On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversation with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there. Now, Jenn, before we start talking about the B 25 and your experience with the B 25 living history, as we’ll say, I do want to say thank you to those who’ve been leaving us
[00:02:50] more five star ratings over an Apple podcast, and we’ve had quite a big jump. Of Spotify three star reviews. I think that’s the max over
[00:02:58] Jenn: Oh good.
[00:02:59] Scott: So yes, thank you to our Spotify listeners who are catching up to our Apple podcast listeners, as far as number of, top ratings.
[00:03:07] if you’re listening on Spotify, be sure to go in there. Drop us three stars. And for my Apple crew out there listening, make sure you guys are dropping us five stars, even if you aren’t writing an actual review, although we do love those and we will read them on the podcast if we get them.
[00:03:26] Jen’s Personal Connection to the B-25
[00:03:26] Scott: let’s talk about the B25 and tell me why that is our topic today.
[00:03:34] Jenn: Like you said, living history. I felt like this was the epitome of walk with history. I felt like I was flying with history. I got to actually fly in a B 25.
[00:03:45] Scott: a B 25 Mitchell, like an actual World War II bomber. This was not, now we’ve done internal tours of the B 29. This one, you actually, and the video is actually going to come out a couple days after this podcast.
[00:04:02] You actually got to fly in the B 25 sitting in the nose with the plexiglass right there in all its World War II glory.
[00:04:11] Jenn: Yeah, I got to sit in the nose in the turret and they had a mock gun up there and they had the mock site, the World War II bomber site that was the advantage for the Americans during that time. And I got to take off in the nose. And so you have a great vantage point on the video, what that would have felt like.
[00:04:31] this aircraft is near and dear to my aviator heart, like it’s named Mitchell, which was my maiden name. I came into the U S Navy as Ensign Mitchell. I got winged as Ensign Mitchell. I got out of the Navy as Lieutenant Mitchell. that last name is my Navy legacy. And it’s named after Billy Mitchell, a brigadier general, William Mitchell, who was air force or army Army Air, before Air Force was even a thing,
[00:05:02] Scott: Army Air
[00:05:03] Jenn: Army Air Force, but he is the pioneer of US military aviation in the regard that an aircraft can shoot and sink a ship.
[00:05:14] And that’s what he proved that aircraft could do. So basically change the whole idea of military aviation at the time and really the Navy has a lot to thank for that because that’s what we do. That’s why we fly off of carriers because we are there not only to, shoot other aircraft, but really to sink ships
[00:05:33] Scott: if you think about it, before that, it was really kind of aerial combat. think World War I, early, it was bombing, but over
[00:05:40] Jenn: overland and yeah,
[00:05:41] Scott: they’re strifing the ground troops, logistic lines and stuff like that. There wasn’t really, like you said, you weren’t really thinking of aviation as a threat against a ship on the sea.
[00:05:54] Jenn: So that’s what Billy Mitchell pioneered. And so the B 25 was named for him. So when you talk about the B 25, usually it’s followed by Mitchell, B 25 Mitchell. Now this is a PBJ uh, aircraft that I got to fly in. So patrol bomber and It was a Marine aircraft, so it’s painted a silver color instead of the Army green because the Marines used it in the Pacific.
[00:06:21] Now, not this particular one, but ones like it. And this one is named Semper Fi, and against the backdrop of the ocean, you want a gray aircraft. Same thing with the Navy aircraft. You ever notice that F 14s, F 18s, they keep that gray? That haze gray and same thing with the aircraft. I flew the helicopter, the 60 Bravo.
[00:06:42] We painted the gray because against water, your camouflage.
[00:06:47] Scott: Yeah.
[00:06:47] The Versatility and Legacy of the B-25
[00:06:47] Scott: And the B 25 was used extensively all throughout World War II, and not just by US troops, but other, allied troops. it was semi synonymous with World War II aviation throughout the entire war.
[00:07:02] Jenn: Yeah, it’s the most produced medium bomber of all time and has served in every theater across World War II. And it’s the first and only time bombers are launched from an aircraft carrier for the Doolittle raid. So again, another name that’s synonymous with aviation history when Doolittle took his 16 B 25s and launched them off of the aircraft carrier Hornet in response to Pearl Harbor.
[00:07:31] And so every aviator knows what Doolittle was doing to push the envelope. They had to take these B 25s and they really reworked them. the configuration of them for the weight to get them off the aircraft carrier so much so that they removed some guns and put painted broomsticks in to look like guns because They really didn’t think they were going to have much in the regards of defense.
[00:08:02] This was very much an offensive mission. And so even more so like the crews that signed up for it, it was kind of like, well, what do we do after? And it’s, it was like, well, you can go to China. You can go to Russia.
[00:08:16] Scott: not going to have enough fuel to come
[00:08:17] Jenn: You’re not going to land back on the carrier.
[00:08:18] Scott: and that’s, so as we kind of said in the intro, right? One, it was more of a mental victory for the U. S. right? and it kind of woke Japan up hey, we can strike you at home just like you hit Hawaii. Also, there was numerous variations of the B 25. It was reworked multiple times.
[00:08:34] That was kind of the other kind of part of legendary part of this aircraft. And for this, for even for the non aviation fan types, the non aviation kind of history nerds, They’ll be from semi familiar with the do little raid and if you tell them yeah This is the mission where they flew the bombers off the carrier and they did didn’t return a lot of people will know it Specifically for that and that was like you said, they couldn’t carry all that fuel and that was I was commenting before We started the podcast.
[00:09:05] This is April of 1942. This is barely four months after Pearl Harbor. Think about the quick turn on, okay, this just happened four months later. They’re trying to figure this out. They’re like, okay, this is what we’re going to do. We’re going to strip these planes and make them as light as humanly possible so they can carry these bombs.
[00:09:22] And Oh, by the way, you’re not going to have enough fuel to return home.
[00:09:25] Jenn: Yeah, like I said, they are going to remove the lower gun turret. They’re going to insulate, they’re going to put on mock gun barrels and the tail cone to look like guns. They’re going to get these collapsible fuel tanks that they’re going to be able to fill them up, but they’re going to basically be able to deflate and save the space.
[00:09:45] So they’re doing all of these things. to respond to Pearl Harbor. Now, the Doolittle raid is not known for mass casualty. It’s not known for mass destruction. What it’s known for is a scare tactic against the Japanese and a morale boost for America.
[00:10:04] So the Japanese were so surprised that Americans were so innovative. to do this and to figure this out so quickly. And they really were all in on figuring this out and doing this to the detriment. Like they didn’t even care if the crew made it back. I mean, granted they went in to make sure the crew survived, but their basic idea was land in China, Russia, and good luck.
[00:10:29] Hopefully those, neutral countries can get you home and actually it’s going to be more detrimental for China than anything. So many people are going to pay the price for that when the Japanese will invade China because of it. But it makes the Japanese kind of stop their forward offensive and pull back to Japan so much so that when the Midway Islands are attacked, America’s so ready that it becomes a turn of events for America.
[00:10:55] America will win Midway. And this is all because Japan has kind of seen that America doesn’t back down.
[00:11:02] Scott: Japan didn’t realize they were poking a bear.
[00:11:04] Jenn: Japanese
[00:11:06] Scott: As big as or as big a bear as they thought right? They thought they were poking a bear cub and they got mama bear, And so we hit him right back which made him kind of recoil, pull back a little bit And so we got that kind of short term response that we wanted so that we could fight them On the front that we were good at and then All the meantime in the background while we’re doing this stuff in the pacific.
[00:11:27] They’re building the bomb They’re building the b29, and doing all this stuff for a long range and so This is kind of the pointy end Demonstrating like you said that innovative american kind of Just drive during world war ii. There was so much progress and we talked about this before that’s made during times of war like this when you’re just dumping money into wartime innovation And that’s what they did So
[00:11:59] Jenn: There’s not a lot of them. When America was able to attack them and do it as a surprise, they got scared and they really recoiled back because they don’t have a huge area like we do in America. So it brought a lot of the fight to the Pacific and to the islands of the Pacific and kept the Japanese away from the mainland, which was the objective.
[00:12:20] I think Doolittle was just so innovative and I think the Mitchell aircraft was so perfect for this. What is interesting about the Mitchell, over 9, 000 Mitchells are built during this time. And like you said, there’s many different characteristics of them and what they can do. And because the aircraft is so versatile like that, they survived, like their durability was exceptionally sturdy.
[00:12:45] And even they could withstand tremendous punishment, they could take on a lot of flack and you could even fly without one engine. And you just had to be careful of your angle of bank, but you could fly with one engine and save the aircraft. So the durability of the Mitchell really allowed for aircraft mission completion, crew survival.
[00:13:06] And another thing I really liked about it as well, there was one aircraft that flew over 300 missions and it was called patches because it’s crew painted all the aircraft black holes with bright yellow paint and it did 300 missions, belly landed six times, had over 400 patch holes and was still able to fly and still able to complete its mission.
[00:13:33] What a versatile aircraft. It really makes you believe in your aircraft as a pilot. The only thing that Mitchell has working against it, and you’ll see in the video, is it’s extremely loud.
[00:13:43]
[00:13:48] Experiencing the B-25 Firsthand
[00:13:48] Scott: if you’re listening to this on the day of release there’s a video that we show where Jen got to go out to California and she was representing a charity that she’s working for called pinups for vets at this Camarillo air show. this is in Southern California area, just north of Los Angeles.
[00:14:04] Jen was out there and she had connected with some of the crew from the B 25, from the Semper Fi. That’s the name of this aircraft.
[00:14:12] Jenn: So I was at the Wings of Camarillo Air Show, which is in August every year. They have all these aircraft that come in It’s a very fun air show and part of what the Commemorative Air Force this the Southern California unit does is offer?
[00:14:24] warbird rides these warbird rides Program is to build You know just camaraderie among the people, teach them about these aircraft. It also funds their projects, funds the restoration of the aircraft. This is the world’s only remaining U. S. Navy Marine B 25 PBJ bomber, the only one. to maintain this aircraft is not cheap.
[00:14:51] And so They offer rides in the aircraft to help fund these missions, and I got to have a flight in one. Now, if you’re interested in having a ride, we’ll have the information in the show notes. They’re always offering rides in different types of aircraft as well. You don’t have to just do the B
[00:15:09] Scott: And they’re going to different air shows around the country. So then it’s not just this particular aircraft. It’s not just in Southern California. Now, I think it’s based out of there, but it’ll fly. I think they were talking about like they flew out of Texas one time. So they go to different, different air shows.
[00:15:22] if you want to follow us, look at our show notes. There’s a link there to the commemorative air force. And there’s other kinds of old war birds, that are also part of this organization, if you’re in the Southern California area, you can go check this out up in Camarillo.
[00:15:33] Aviation Adventures at the Camarillo Air Show
[00:15:33] Scott: Now tell me a little bit about what you got to do while you were at Camarillo, in the aircraft, some of the things that you learned, give some of our listeners the specifics of what you got to do
[00:15:45] Jenn: Of course, I got to climb around the aircraft, and if you’ve ever been in a World War II type aircraft, it’s very tight, and even to get into the nose, I had to crawl through a little tunnel. So if you’re going to ride in one of these aircrafts, you’ve got to be pretty agile. You have to climb up old school ladders that are made of metal.
[00:16:08] And even when I sat beside the co pilot who gives us a great interview, if you watch the video it’s tight. Now, I always say I have the perfect frame. As a woman, I’m about 5’6 the perfect frame to fit into the cockpits of World War II. But the men were smaller then. And you’re sitting right beside your co pilot.
[00:16:33] it’s a yoke aircraft, so that’s where you have your two hands on the control. And it’s static instruments.
[00:16:39] Scott: it’s dual pilot.
[00:16:40] Jenn: dual piloted. And so we were very tight up in there. But then you get to see where the gunners stand, the top turret, the nose turret, the tail turret, and where the passengers sit.
[00:16:52] And I got a great interview with the maintenance chief, the crew chief as well teaching me about the aircraft. But one of the things I learned that was so interesting, especially these ones that were used in the Pacific, mostly by Navy. Marines mostly with skip bombing.
[00:17:07] Scott: Yeah, you talked about that.
[00:17:09] Jenn: So that’s where you get close enough to the water and you drop the bomb and you can skip it across the surface of the water, much like skipping a rock. And it’s much better for destruction of ships to get hit on the hull on the side than to be dropped down on. Because If a bomb drops straight down onto a ship, they might be able to contain the damage.
[00:17:32] It might not go through the ship, more than likely it will not, and then they can contain that damage. But if you hit the hull of a ship, the side of the ship you’re going to cause a big opening that’s going to take on water. And that is the most effective way to sink a ship. So skip bombing was the most effective way to take down the enemy’s vessels.
[00:17:52] Scott: That’s so interesting. And it always makes me think about what’s the first time they ever realized they could do that. And someone probably did it by accident.
[00:17:59] Jenn: Yeah, it was probably a some marine who was like, Oh my gosh, I’m too, I’m too close to the water. Oh, I missed. But I did miss. It hit. How’d that hit? I dropped it way away. Did it bounce off the water and go into? Oh my gosh, it’s skipping like a rock. You can skip a bomb just like you skip a
[00:18:20] Scott: that means they were probably flying pretty low in order to do that.
[00:18:23] Jenn: They did and that became their official tactic because it was so effective to sink ships that became the tactic for how these B 25s would bomb in the water.
[00:18:35] Scott: Yeah, that’s so neat to hear things like that You’ll only ever figure that out really in wartime, right?
[00:18:41] They would never try that during regular training because If you don’t know that it’s even a thing you’re never gonna until you’re forced into some weird scenario and you got to drop the bomb anyways. so you do it and you’re like, Oh my gosh, but it was probably the tail gunner that actually saw it.
[00:18:55] Skip probably wasn’t the pilot or it was probably the tail gunner sitting in the back. Be like, Hey, you wouldn’t believe what I saw actually happened with that bomb. It skipped across the water, hit it on the side. And that’s why it’s keeling over now because It actually worked more like a torpedo.
[00:19:07] So I thought that was really fascinating. And then you got to sit like right in the cockpit. You were sitting right up front with the co pilot and then for actual takeoff, you actually got to sit in the nose. So if you’re listening, picture the B25. And if you don’t kind of know what a B25 looks like off the top of your head, it’s your kind of classic warbird look.
[00:19:26] It’s similar to the B 17, but it really has kind of like the dual tails in the back, but it has that plexiglass kind of skeleton esque front end nose, typically with a machine gun pointing out the front of it. And so you got to sit right there during taxi and all the way through takeoff.
[00:19:45] Jenn: was amazing. So only one person sits in the front and they asked who wants to sit in the front and nobody answered right away. And I was like, I will. And I can’t believe nobody was there because I rode with other civilians who are doing a ride. You’re paying for their ride. Warbird ride. And so I got to crawl through that tunnel, get up front, buckle in.
[00:20:04] And like you said, this plexiglass all around you, it’s very reminiscent of maybe the millennium Falcon. When you think of all the glass around your feet, around your sides, around your head, so you can see in every direction below you. And on the sides of you and above you. And that was for a nose gunner to be able to see the enemy coming in at all different directions.
[00:20:24] And so I got to take off from there, which means I’m great aligned to the middle of the runway. So you can see as I take off, we’re going great. And then as we lift off and we fly over Cam Rio, we actually head out to the Ronald Reagan library, presidential library that’s in Simi Valley. And then we turn around and come back.
[00:20:42] So it was a perfect flight by about 20 minutes. It’s beautiful day. And it was just one of those moments in aviation where I just felt so in love with being in the air and flying. It really was a gift.
[00:20:59] Reflecting on the Flight Experience
[00:20:59] Jenn: And I, of all these years, of being a pilot, and the having the last name Mitchell, I took my oath of office on the day that the Wright brothers flew their aircraft for the first time, and then to actually get to fly in a.
[00:21:12] B 25 from the nose was one of those moments as a pilot that I just, it can’t be topped. I was very thankful. I was very grateful. And as a historian to know this is the only bomber that ever flew off an aircraft carrier. I just felt so lucky and I was very thankful that the museum allowed me to do that.
[00:21:36] Scott: It was a fun video to make. We’ve been waiting for a while to make this one. In fact, we’ve been trying to make this video for well over a year. We had actually had plans when we were still living in Virginia over a year ago to go to the Camarillo Air Show last year. It just didn’t end up working out for a multitude of different reasons.
[00:21:53] And this time, I think we just basically kind of made it happen. I was ecstatic that you got to do that ride in the nose and in the B25 because you would come kind of volunteering at the air show.
[00:22:03] They gave you this ride and this is kind of our gift back to them is making this video as well as featuring you. And one of the things that I put in the video that I really love that encompassed You and your love for aviation was a quote Often attributed to Leonardo da Vinci.
[00:22:19] there’s no proof that he ever actually said it, but the quote goes, once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes to turn skyward for there. You have been in there. You will always long to return. This has been a Walk With History production. Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Benny. Episode researched by Jennifer Benny. Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk With History is supported by our fans at thehistoryroadtrip. com. Our eternal thanks to those providing funding to help keep us going.
[00:23:00] to Doug McLiverty, Larry Myers, and Patrick Benny. Make sure you hit that follow button in your podcast player, and we’ll talk to you next time.
[00:23:09]
[00:23:16] Scott: