In the 100th episode of ‘Talk with History’, hosts Scott and Jenn celebrate this milestone by inviting Christopher Jackson, known for his role as George Washington in ‘Hamilton’, to discuss his career, passion for history, and the portrayal of historical figures.

Jackson shares his journey from first thoughts on portraying George Washington to deeply researching the role and visiting historical sites like Mount Vernon and Valley Forge. The conversation also explores the complexity of historical figures, the impact of ‘Hamilton’ on public interest in history, and the importance of truth in historical storytelling.

Jackson hints at his future projects, including a historical drama on the Pullman porters and the upcoming 10th anniversary of ‘Hamilton’.

0:00 Interview with Chris Jackson of Hamilton

00:55 The Iconic Role of George Washington in Hamilton

01:55 A Special Connection Through History and Music

03:09 Exploring Personal Histories and the Impact of Hamilton

04:36 The Importance of Historical Locations and Personal Reflections

04:49 Diving Deep into the Role of George Washington

09:11 The Personal Journey of Christopher Jackson

10:47 Learning History Through Different Lenses

11:51 The Influence of Family and Early Education on Historical Perspective

16:25 Exploring Ancestry and the Great Migration

20:08 Preparing for the role of George Washington

27:12 Personal Stories and Historical Events That Shape Us

29:06 A Trip Down Memory Lane: Age and Memories

29:30 Historical Reflections: The Challenger Disaster and Valley Forge

30:01 The Complexity of Historical Figures: Washington’s Dual Legacy

32:16 The Evolution of Historical Understanding

33:05 Revisiting Mount Vernon: A Changed Perspective

34:20 The Power of History and Storytelling

38:32 History is always there

42:33 Inspiration to learn history

48:15 A Look Ahead: Future Projects and Reflections

Transcript

100 Interview with Chris Jackson of Hamilton

[00:00:00] Chris Jackson: And then, the second part of your question. No, I had never given any thought ever to portraying George Washington. I had seen probably the few movies were made for TV movies that they had made.Welcome to talk with history. I am your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jenn. Hello. On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired, both travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.

[00:00:39] Scott: Now, Jenn, this is our hundredth episode. We’ve been doing this for a couple of years now, and we have a very special guest joining us today. So we. Really have a guest who needs no introduction, but I’m going to give him one anyways. 

[00:00:55] The Iconic Role of George Washington in Hamilton

[00:00:55] Scott: He originated the iconic role of George Washington in the groundbreaking musical phenomenon, Hamilton, his powerful vocals and nuanced performance captivated audiences worldwide.

[00:01:06] And his portrayal of the first president sparked important conversations about history. From there, he only picked up steam, continuing on his career on the silver screen of television and I’m making his career very, very short, but most importantly, the most important thing about our guest is he has a passion for history.

[00:01:23] So welcome, Mr. Christopher Jackson. Thank you so much for joining us on talk with history tonight.

[00:01:28] Chris Jackson: Thank you for having me. Happy 100th.

[00:01:30] Scott: Thank you so much. this What a, milestone.

[00:01:32] a, this is a great milestone for us. Especially kind of bootstrapping a podcast in our living room whenever we can. So thank you so much for joining us and, we’re really happy to have you. just so people know kind of how we got connected with, with you we’ll kind of tell our audience Hey, how the heck did you guys get connected with, with Christopher Jackson?

[00:01:54] Yeah, 

[00:01:55] A Special Connection Through History and Music

[00:01:55] Jenn: it was honestly, Chris, it was amazing experience for me. I am even wearing my history has its eyes on you t shirt. 

[00:02:03] Chris Jackson: I love 

[00:02:03] Jenn: was driving back from a friend’s house in Uniontown, Pennsylvania, and I was driving past Fort Necessity, which if you know the song, history has its eyes on you. George Washington is talking, I’m, I’m younger than you are now given my first command.

[00:02:17] So I stopped there and I just did those lines real quick. And I talked about what George Washington is talking about learning in that moment and how lucky he is to learn because he didn’t get killed. And he didn’t lose his command, which were two things that probably should have happened. And so he, he’s talking about how lucky he got in that moment and how he’s trying to teach that to Hamilton, that you don’t always get to learn from your mistakes, but if you do like really bring it, take it on and, and, and change, people’s lives for the, what you learn.

[00:02:52] And you had reached out, you saw that reel and you said you never got a chance to visit it before. You. Took the role, but then you and then you said you were a fan of mine, and I almost lost my mind 

[00:03:04] Chris Jackson: Sure.

[00:03:06] I mean, you guys, I mean, it’s so cool. 

[00:03:09] Exploring Personal Histories and the Impact of Hamilton

[00:03:09] Chris Jackson: I grew up in Southern Illinois, so being, that’s, I grew up in, I was born in Metropolis, Illinois, inside of Fort Massac. So, when I was, When I was young, they had they had two pair of Buffalo, like actual Buffalo that they had in a small pen that you could drive down and just park and watch the Buffalo sort of graze in a, in a, in a paddock, if you could call it, that was so small, but Fort Massach and in, and then later I moved to Cairo, which was, Which is at the southernmost point of Illinois.

[00:03:42] So there’s a lot of history baked into and into that area, especially around the civil war. And so for, for me, it was just always so intriguing to know that, General Grant stayed at Magnolia manor, the cupola, because there was no other tall buildings, he could see the confluence of the rivers and blah, blah, like it was just always that’s, that’s where I learned.

[00:04:00] I got into the arts because I think of my interest and passion for history. It was just. Always. So the humanity of it was always the most

[00:04:08] Oh, of 

[00:04:09] Jenn: course.

[00:04:09] Chris Jackson: And so, so watching you walk through Fort necessity and it looked very much like a Fort Massac or Fort Defiance, like all of these sort of, you could still see the, the, the, the dirt from the readouts, but it was, it was nice to know it was really cool to know that.

[00:04:26] Real people built those things and a hundred and some ideas later, they’re still here and there was significant. And why were there significant? And then, then you dig and then it’s, it’s, you walk through just like what you’re doing. And I think that’s

[00:04:36] The Importance of Historical Locations and Personal Reflections

[00:04:36] Jenn: Yeah That was like that’s the whole importance of the channel is to take you to the location Like walk you through history Like I wanted you to see what it was like and to stand in the footsteps of those history makers Like what were they seeing? What were they thinking? 

[00:04:49] Diving Deep into the Role of George Washington

[00:04:49] Jenn: So when you were first approached to plage George, Washington Washington what was your reaction?

[00:04:55] What did you know about him? And how did you feel about portraying that person in history?

[00:05:02] Chris Jackson: Honestly I found out. About the project that Lynn was doing. I, I want to say somewhere like in 2011 ish or 2010, excuse me, we were still doing in the Heights on Broadway. And so the first, the first, I’ve told the story the first time I heard anything about it, Lynn had come back for vacation and he had talked to Tommy and, and he bought this biography, which, there’s a picture of him in a hammock or a floaty in a pool somewhere in the Caribbean where he was reading this book and he was really intrigued. And, when we started Heights Tommy and Lynn and I were all reading a team of rivals at the same time. It’s just sort of, Tommy was like, read this. And I was like, Oh yeah. And it was of course a page turner 

[00:05:44] for those of you that have read it. and w it was fantastic. And we all just we love a good read. We’re always intrigued. But the fact that he found, this idea for a show he, we were actually on stage and performance when he told me about it, like it was in the middle of the show, in the first act of in the Heights. Well, so the inside of Broadway, right? You you have moments when you’re upstage and there’s at that time, there’s a number that’s going on in front of us, but we’re sort of like in character, but we’re up in, kind of in the dark and that’s when we, would catch up on the day or whatever, tell a joke, whatever.

[00:06:18] But we had, we had three and a half minutes to just talk and it, it built into the show. nobody knew what we’re talking about. And, the famous, the, the, the sort of the notable thing is he, he looks at me, we’re Right before we’re about to go out into the, like the big first act number.

[00:06:31] And he’s I think I got my next thing. And I’m like, what? He’s yeah, it’s something about the treasury. Say it’s a hip hop concept album about the treasury secretary. And then off we went I mean, it was literally that quick. I didn’t think anything of it. I don’t know how much time passed between that moment and the next conversation we had about it, but at some point Tommy Kail approaches me, I’m on stage doing my warm up before the show.

[00:06:54] And he’s coming across the stage, Tommy Kail, our director, and he said, Hey, what’s up G dubs. And I’m like, what? you just 

[00:06:59] Scott: threw it out there.

[00:07:00] Chris Jackson: What? Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and they had 

[00:07:06] the idea, these are my 

[00:07:07] best 

[00:07:07] Jenn: Sure. So you

[00:07:08] Chris Jackson: the shorthand the shorthand is real, but he was like, Hey, I didn’t audition for it.

[00:07:13] That was the purpose was to have me do. The role. So that’s the first time that I kind of like it started to cook for me. And then, the second part of your question. No, I had never given any thought ever to portraying George Washington. I had seen probably the few movies were made for TV movies that they had made. And, and sort of, it’s, it was always sort of a version of of these, these very lofty upstanding men who were just sort of like a, a step away from, from the statues. The marble busts or the portraits and the whole idea behind the casting of of Hamilton was to to change them enough that that folks would see them in a in a human way and that we as actors would be able to portray them in a very human way and and the given circumstances that we were.

[00:08:07] Given in the script and in the score would, would then motivate us to move through. And then everything that I based Washington on was really based on just the, what I knew and what I was able to research respectfully about what is it that stands a soldier up? What are the things that are important to, to a soldier?

[00:08:26] And, and, and then one step beyond that, an officer, Washington certainly did not come by. By merit in the way that we understand it, right? He came, but there were a lot of different things that contributed to him taking that, that command. But we were the same age when he assumed command of, of the army outside of Boston and our show opened and I became George Washington.

[00:08:48] So I, I, I tried to figure out the things that we, that we did have in common. He had a lot of, a lot, most of much of his life was defined by loss in his early life. His father was gone, his older brother died, and his best friend all died by the time he was 16. And that defined much of what, and the rest of it was aspirational.

[00:09:09] Who’s more aspirational 

[00:09:10] than an actor?

[00:09:10] Jenn: that’s true.

[00:09:11] The Personal Journey of Christopher Jackson

[00:09:11] Chris Jackson: My father was not a, was not a presence in my life, but I was fortunate to have really strong and wonderful mentors that, that came through and kicked me when I needed it, and lifted me up when I needed it. Gave me guidance and the rest of it. I just kind of figured out on my own at, 18 in New York studying acting.

[00:09:28] So it was the confluence of, of, understanding what leadership meant, what and, and what appearances. Mean, 

[00:09:35] right? 

[00:09:35] And then incorporating

[00:09:36] Jenn: No, Chris, what I love about that is George Washington was a big risk taker and he had a lot of aspirations for himself and you, you found that as a commonality, one of the things I loved about Hamilton and I saw Hamilton 2018. like third row. It’s a funny story behind it.

[00:09:55] But Scott gave me like this Christmas present and he was like, I’m going to get you to Hamilton. I’m going to find a way to get you to Hamilton. At the time we lived in Tennessee too. So it was funny. But when I went for the first showing George Washington was, and you’re a man of color.

[00:10:09] George Washington was played by African American man. You’re African American. I loved that and for me to see a man of color play Washington, men of color built Washington. George Washington is standing on the shoulders of men of color. And so to see a man of color play him, I thought it was. Perfect. I really did.

[00:10:29] Chris Jackson: It’s what I think about when I go there.

[00:10:31] Jenn: Yeah.

[00:10:32] Chris Jackson: It’s what I think about when I see the Washington Monument. I, I, I mean, I, I’m there and I’m in Washington eight to 10 times a year. I literally think about it every

[00:10:41] Jenn: That’s amazing. 

[00:10:42]

[00:10:47] Learning History Through Different Lenses

[00:10:47] Scott: One of the things that we like to ask, ask folks when we talk to them about history is, and you kind of actually already touched on it, was, How we all tend to learn history, even though it’s the same, we learn it a little differently, we learn it through our own lens, we learn it depending on what part of the country we live in and we’ve, the more we’ve been online and kind of doing walks with history and talks with history and meeting other people from around the country talking about the same historical event, we’ll all say oh, that’s not what I learned when I was younger, that’s not what I focused on when I was younger.

[00:11:20] So. When it came to that for you, you said you were from, from Illinois, when it, whether it came to, to

[00:11:26] Chris Jackson: Southern Illinois. Huge distinction. Huge distinction.

[00:11:30]

[00:11:30] Scott: For, for you kind of growing up in Southern Illinois, what do you remember? You kind of had a little bit of a passion, semi early on, what are some of the things you remember from, from your childhood? That was focused on in, in your neck of the woods where you were growing up in Illinois.

[00:11:47]

[00:11:51] The Influence of Family and Early Education on Historical Perspective

[00:11:51] Chris Jackson: So first I would say that. Most of my historical education, both in, in school and, and just sort of in, in the local zeitgeist was kind of the, I’d like to say a holdover from the great sort of propaganda moment in history. We’ve got a, we’ve probably got a good 65, 70 year span where Our nationalist identity, especially I think leading up to the decades leading up to, and then when we finally arrived in 1975 and it’s the centennial and it’s just sort of like, so you’re, I was born and it’s it was like, I think at its greatest, the, at the Zenith of everybody kind of, dug in and that became the curriculum, right?

[00:12:30] It’s we kind of codified. All of the things, all of the, like the blatant lies that historians knew, but didn’t want to burn. It’s almost as if they didn’t want to burden children with the truth. If as if, as if that wasn’t, if, as if the truth wasn’t already interesting enough, I think that it was sort of a wash in slogan and I don’t want to say propaganda as if, as if it’s not, I don’t want to be Pollyannish about it.

[00:12:54] Propaganda is a huge part of how governments. Support themselves and the public and, and, and make things easier for the, the greater amount of people to learn the population to learn and, and sort of hold on to I had the benefit of being raised very early on. My mom was still finishing her teaching degree.

[00:13:12] When I was, I think she, when I was like five or six, so the first six years of my life, the real formative years, we spent a lot of time with my grandparents who were both black entrepreneurs. They came out of sort of that the Booker T. Washington sort of like bootstrap, go to technical school, get a trade.

[00:13:30] They were, they own funeral funeral homes Jackson funeral homes. And they, they were. Self made. It’s not even doesn’t really begin to describe them. They were old enough that the old ways were still very much an everyday thing. So I remember my grandmother making her own, washing powder out of lye soap and our, our body soap was lye soap.

[00:13:52] And I used to cut the, get to cut the blocks of lye, soap like that was all a part of my life. And then on my mom’s side of the family, they were all farmers. And so, I, I grew up, I spent half my time with my, with my father’s parent, my father, some of my paternal grandparents, and then with my maternal grandparents, they were very much farmers.

[00:14:11] It was, they lived in and around and on the land. And so I got that education as well. I mention that because culturally and historically, both of my grandparents placed a great deal of importance on understanding what. I was a part of and where I came from. So I was ever aware of the importance of knowing who and how the civil, how exactly the civil rights movement not only came to be, but was sustained and how it was.

[00:14:43] Changing shape. I remember watching Jesse Jackson at the democratic convention. I remember his, I am somebody speech. I was watching it. I remember those moments and they were codified because my grandparents set me down and explained it to me in real time. I was four or five years old, you know what I mean?

[00:15:00] So those kinds of things, like I always had a sense of what was happening in the world and what I, not only what my place was in it, but what was expected of me.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:12] As a citizen, as a black man, as someone who was through, through my life circumstances, forced to move between both sides of my family.

[00:15:26] And it’s still in, in, in a still very segregated. Emotionally and mentally part of the country. And so I learned how to code switch. I learned how to go along to get along. I learned how to push slightly and softly. I learned how to push loudly and, and not so not, not without with a lot of nuance and it was a great benefit to me.

[00:15:48] So as I moved through, my schooling. History made sense because I had already received an education of foundation in that and taught how important it was. I always took, I always took history very seriously, second only to music. That was, that’s just how it had that and lunch, but that’s how it kind of, that’s how it kind of formed.

[00:16:11] That’s how it kind of formed me. And I, and I I’ve, I’ve been ever grateful especially in this Hamilton experience, because I felt I was. Primed already to understand the context of it, and really play it with commitment. 

[00:16:22] That was the, 

[00:16:23] Jenn: It’s the two things you love. 

[00:16:25] Exploring Ancestry and the Great Migration

[00:16:25] Jenn: Now your paternal grandparents, your African American grandparents, were they part of the great migration? Did they? Were there families from the South?

[00:16:33] Chris Jackson: So this is the funny story that I meant to tell you. I promise I’ll give you the short, shorter answer than the last two. So my wife and I get on ancestry. com the other night. I have avoided it. I have avoided it. I have avoided it. My last name, there’s not a lot of touch points that are, that are positive, but it turns out that we’re in the same bloodline as, as, as old Andy.

[00:17:01] Which is crazy to me. He and his wife didn’t have kids, but his his parents are, are in my family’s bloodline is crazy. you got to come to Tennessee then. That means you got to come to the hermitage.

[00:17:15] But, but then go back even further because John Jackson, who was a captain in back in the colonies was a member of the, the Prince Phillips war. Who was also, I mean, that whole anti native American thing runs all the way.

[00:17:30] There’s two genocidal maniacs in my family tree. And I’m like, yo, this is, this is nuts. But so we’re, so cool. Yes, they were a part of the great migration. One of the reasons why they both went to mortuary school was from the Booker T. Washington sort of bootstraps, a talented 10th kind of ideal.

[00:17:49] And, on my, on my grandparents back parlor, there were four portraits hanging on the wall. There was, there was a black Jesus Christ. There was Martin Luther King jr. And there was Mary McLeod Bethune and there was Booker T. Washington. They were very much. I mean, that was, that was the back wall of their parlor.

[00:18:07] And so growing up and seeing and knowing that, My, My, every, it’s every generation prior to mine, each, each couple had like at least nine kids, every single generation. it’s it’s insane. But they, they were mostly from the northeast northeast Arkansas area. I mean the, the, the northern east most corner right next to Memphis. So they weren’t really that far from where they mostly settled, which was Metropolis and, and Cairo. But it was all close to the river, and I grew up going to Memphis. Going to mud Island. And, I was there, I was there when the, when the, the Memphis bell movie had come out and they had nine B 17s. I was

[00:18:50] Oh my gosh. Oh, no 

[00:18:51] Scott: way.

[00:18:52] Chris Jackson: I got, I got sprayed in oil that yell. Yeah, it was amazing. I

[00:18:55] Jenn: We do a whole video on Mary McLeod Bethune. We go to her house. We talk about the 6888. It’s really cool. She’s very important. An amazing story. Amazing story. Burger T. Washington actually went to school here outside of Norfolk. He went to Hampton University right here out of Norfolk.

[00:19:09] So a lot of, we’re, we’re crisscrossing the history here. It’s pretty cool.

[00:19:13] Chris Jackson: Yeah. And we’re talking about huge schools 

[00:19:16] of thought too. 

[00:19:16] Like I’m more of a Dubois I, I, I relate more to what. W B Dubois, his, his sort 

[00:19:22] of philosophy, but I, I’ve read Booker T and I understand both. I understand that how, how those, how they both collided diverged and then came back together.

[00:19:31] There’s a lot of ideas in those moments in those, in that period of time that still influences us today, though, you’ve had, you had to 

[00:19:38] have read it in order to really 

[00:19:40] understand it. But 

[00:19:41] Jenn: it’s a lot. Have you 

[00:19:43] Chris Jackson: It is a lot, 

[00:19:44] Jenn: like a thousand pages. I told my

[00:19:47] Chris Jackson: I’ve got the first and I have the first and the second edition. 

[00:19:50] Jenn: like, I took a radical African American class. I said, that’s what’s radical. The length of this book. He started laughing.

[00:19:57] Chris Jackson: Oh my God. Yeah, I tried to get through his, his Philadelphia not experiment the, the, the, the treaties he wrote on, on black folks in Philadelphia, which was like, it was almost like Deuteronomy. I was like, I’m, I’m doing my best, 

[00:20:08] Preparing for the role of George Washington

[00:20:08] Jenn: so, when you found out you were playing George Washington, what, did you go to any historic places? Did you read any books? What movies did you watch? Or were you just I’m just going to make it my own. I’m going to find my own way here.

[00:20:29] Chris Jackson: The day that Tommy walked up to me and explained to me why he called me G dubs, which was like, I think it was later that day. Actually, I went to the borders after the show. I went down to Madison Square Garden. There was a borders there on 34th street and I bought Ron Chernow’s biography on Washington. And from that moment till the time that I left Hamilton, I think I made it through that book seven times. So that was my Bible pretty much for the first time. It was the first time in my career that I had been given an opportunity to truly research And the, the important part that I found really early on was that, it’s not called Washington, it’s called Hamilton.

[00:21:12] So we only really see Washington when his movements intersect with Hamilton’s. So what became super important was knowing exactly what, what was happening with Washington the moment before he sees. Hamilton, the moment before he comes into a scene and knowing what he was going into was really important.

[00:21:37] So, if you’re watching the movie or have you seen the show, like when Washington makes his first appearance, it’s during my shot, it’s during the end of my shot. Now, those moments didn’t exactly line up, but then, but they intersect in that Washington does go into. New York. And he does see these, these rabble rousers down in the town square.

[00:21:58] He sees all of that right before he almost loses his entire army in battle of Brooklyn. So like in a series of retreats, right? So, but it was really important for me to know what he went through in Boston, Mm hmm.

[00:22:11] how everyone was calling it a victory. And he was consumed with the fact that it. It wasn’t a, it wasn’t a sound victory that, that he almost, again, at every turn, especially in the first, like two and a half years, three years of the, of the, the, the war, he was close to losing his army, like Mm hmm. And I think not only was he, from his papers and writings, like I get the sense that he was as equally concerned about the welfare of the army and his reputation, because. Posterity was so important. So it’s like I even and even in the telling of this story, it’s important to me to know that, even though we don’t really discuss any specific things like he’s not just worried about losing the battle, he’s worried about losing his livelihood and his reputation too.

[00:22:59] And those are at times equally motivating

[00:23:02] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:23:03] And I think that, so to ask the question or to answer the question, like those humanizing moments. Because it’s not, that’s not a glorious, honorable thing to be worried about your reputation.

[00:23:14] Scott: Yeah. Yes. It’s a very human thing. 

[00:23:18] Chris Jackson: But, and for the guy who has to play him, it’s really important to know that that’s a part of, that’s a part of it.

[00:23:24] You know what I mean? And so all of those moments, the way that they intersect, become really, really, really important. I did get to go to I got to go to Mount Vernon. The folks at Mount Vernon were incredibly gracious. We were filming a doc as we were preparing for the, the, the show. And so I got to go, we got to Mount Vernon about three o’clock in the afternoon.

[00:23:46] It was a coldest November day. I think I’ve ever experienced in my life. I think it was November, but it was, it was bone rattling cold, but we were there until nine 30 that night. Oh, 

[00:23:55] Jenn: cool.

[00:23:57] Chris Jackson: the place down. We got a private tour. We got access to some things that the public generally don’t get to see, but that they still show that house without a fireplace going is, is wow.

[00:24:09] Jenn: Freezing. 

[00:24:10] Mm hmm. 

[00:24:11] Chris Jackson: it’s 

[00:24:11] terrible. 

[00:24:12] Jenn: Yeah. 

[00:24:13] Chris Jackson: Yeah. And I got to go to Valley 

[00:24:14] Forge. 

[00:24:15] Jenn: Yay. 

[00:24:15] Chris Jackson: Mm I had never been there after being on the East Coast for, 30 years, I’d never been there. I had no idea that the grounds were the size that they were. In Illinois, we celebrate Pulaski Day. My family lives in Alexander and Pulaski County.

[00:24:30] So I but to be able to, to see his quarters. The vastness of, of, of that space and the, the, just the stories that the ground will tell you. And the proximity to Gettysburg was striking to me, this last this last summer I gave an appearance at Dickinson college and then had, had another gig with with the U S army orchestra.

[00:24:55] And so I drove from Dickinson and PA to DC, and I’d never made that drive before. And we drove, I drove, Within 10 miles of the Gettysburg grounds. And I was like, wow,

[00:25:05] It’s just the way that it was just very striking. And because you guys spent a lot of time on the road, obviously the fact that those pivotal moments were to our country were so close together is both like heartbreaking and just ironic.

[00:25:19] You know what I mean? It was, it

[00:25:19] was really 

[00:25:20] Jenn: It really was. And I, I just went to Valley Forge myself. I went to Washington’s headquarters. You went on a cold day in um, to Mount Vernon. I went on a freezing cold day in December to Valley Forge. And I, it kind of reminiscent of the army freezing. there in December anyway, and I got to be alone in Washington’s headquarters because no one was there that day.

[00:25:40] And they told me all the stories about Washington being there and being with all of his aides, including Hamilton. 

[00:25:47] Chris Jackson: With Hamilton downstairs in the park, in that little room, that little tiny room piled with papers and close Yeah. 

[00:25:52] Jenn: they were like, Washington touched bannister in Washington. So, and then they told me Martha came and moved and stayed with them. And I said, did they share a wall with his aides?

[00:26:02] And they’re like, yeah, I’m like, if I was a Martha, the first thing I would be is like, push this bed away 

[00:26:07] Chris Jackson: from the Yep.

[00:26:09] Yep. 

[00:26:10] Yep. Aren’t the aren’t the Rangers. 

[00:26:12] They’re amazing 

[00:26:12] though. Like it was, they are so engaged and, and, and know so much. It’s, it’s really, it’s a really cool. It makes it so much, so much just more awesome to get that 

[00:26:23] kind 

[00:26:23] of, you

[00:26:23] know, 

[00:26:24] Jenn: And you can feel it. I always say you can feel the history. Like I could. I, to be in the space of where it happened, it was just really amazing to be there. So it’s great that you got to go to, to the, both of those um, but you still haven’t been to Fort necessity. So we, you have to 

[00:26:39] Chris Jackson: no, no. But I’m going to, I’m going to starred on my map. And now that I know that, that it’s not quite as far West as I thought it was. Yeah. I don’t do a lot of cross country traveling, driving anymore, but yeah, I’ll, I know I’ll, I’ll find my, I’ll make 

[00:26:54] my way out there 

[00:26:54] for 

[00:26:54] Jenn: Yeah, like a Pittsburgh trip. When you go to Pittsburgh, it’s a

[00:26:57] good. And if you want to visit uh, the United flight 93, it’s kind of close to that memorial is where so it’s, it’s 

[00:27:04] kind of, yes, exactly in Shanksville. 

[00:27:07] Scott: Yeah. So, so I, I love to kind of you know, away from, from the shows. 

[00:27:12] Personal Stories and Historical Events That Shape Us

[00:27:12] Scott: I love the personal stories when I get to talk to people on the One of the things that I’ve enjoyed, I joke all the time. Um, And and for folks who are who are new to the podcast is I’m actually not the history buff, right? Jenn’s the history nerd. I kind of married into this and I have, I have learned a lot since we started walk with 

[00:27:35] Chris Jackson: I bet. 

[00:27:37] I bet. 

[00:27:37] Scott: so much. I can, I, I sound so much smarter than I used to. , But one of the things that, that, that we love to ask on talk with history, again, different people, different perspectives , is what’s the, kind of the first major historical event that you remember from your childhood. That kind of first moment where that that that bubble was really kind of broken because when you’re young, you’re kind of, for lack of a better word, it’s all you.

[00:28:03] You’re the center of your own universe. And then there’s that one event That everybody remembers and all of a sudden they’re like, Oh my gosh, the world is, is a bigger place. Something happened. That’s major. It’s that flagpole moment in your life. For some people, it’s personal. For me, it was, I’m from California, so it was a major earthquake, right?

[00:28:20] When the A’s and the giants had that, that um, during the 

[00:28:23] Chris Jackson: I was watching. Yeah. I was watching the 

[00:28:25] Scott: so, so what’s something like that for, for you, probably 

[00:28:34] Chris Jackson: probably the challenger 

[00:28:35] because Krista McAuliffe was from 

[00:28:37] Kentucky 

[00:28:38] Scott: yeah.

[00:28:38] Oh, 

[00:28:39] Chris Jackson: and where in Kentucky she was from. I don’t quite remember, but like where I was growing up, Kentucky was right across the river. So she may as may, may as well have just been living on the other side of the bridge there.

[00:28:49] And we were all watching it. They had wheeled the wheel, the TVs into, the cafeteria, the classroom. We were in a classroom. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I think, the first, probably, yeah, that first moment where the world changed a little bit for, 

[00:29:04] Jenn: Yeah.

[00:29:06] A Trip Down Memory Lane: Age and Memories

[00:29:06] Jenn: So, so I didn’t answer 

[00:29:07] because you and I are close to the same age, Chris. I was born in 77. I’m older than Scott. I call myself a Puma. I’m not a full cougar. I’m only five years older, but so I didn’t want to 

[00:29:18] Chris Jackson: You’re, you’re, you’re only 

[00:29:19] bragging on Scott’s taste. It’s all good. It’s all good. Your life does not suck, Scott.

[00:29:25] Yes. This we can 

[00:29:26] Jenn: I didn’t want to like taint it because that’s the first thing I remember too. Same thing. 

[00:29:30] Historical Reflections: The Challenger Disaster and Valley Forge

[00:29:30] Jenn: I remember them willing in the televisions. I remember it exploding, but they’re not, didn’t say that’s what happened. I remember my 

[00:29:38] Chris Jackson: Yeah. The confusion of it.

[00:29:40] Yeah. 

[00:29:40] Jenn: and then just going back to the classrooms and we were so excited, but now we’re not excited.

[00:29:45] So I didn’t quite understand what had happened right in that moment, but I knew later that night when watching the news with Reagan and my parents, I kind of put it all together. But in that moment it wasn’t, 

[00:30:02] The Complexity of Historical Figures: Washington’s Dual Legacy

[00:30:02] Jenn: One of the things I loved about Valley Forge and one of the great stories they tell is there’s like 200 men of color that fight for Washington during the Revolutionary War, and most of them are free.

[00:30:12] There’s a lot of there’s enslaved and there’s free. So here’s Washington leading men of all different backgrounds. And You know, people always wonder about him as an enslaver, but here he is leading free men of color and then after death, uh, Martha sets his enslaved free and people always wonder, well, how do you wrestle with these two things to, like, look at somebody and be inspired by them, but also look at.

[00:30:39] They, the biggest, probably the biggest sin of American history is enslavement. And so to have someone who’s done both is hard for people to wrestle with. And as a historian, I always try to tell people, you don’t have to judge them. You don’t have to wrestle with them. You don’t have to try to come to terms with that.

[00:30:56] All you need to do is know the truth. That’s it. And then from there, you can decide. You can look at some things and go, I’ll learn from that. I’ll learn to do it this way, or I’m going to learn from this and do it better this way. But you don’t have to judge them. I mean, like that really isn’t your job, but how do you wrestle with that?

[00:31:14] Do you ever have people say things to you or you know, ask you questions like that? you know, how do you respond to that?

[00:31:22] Chris Jackson: I think there’s room for all of the, all of the thoughts. Cause I’ve had all of them. I had them all before anybody knew that Hamilton was ever gonna be a thing. So they only freed slaves because they didn’t want to place the burden of the tax and the upkeep of those living persons on whomever would be inheriting them.

[00:31:42] If the person that was going to be inheriting the slaves could not afford to do that, that was the main impetus. 

[00:31:52] Scott: Interesting. Of

[00:31:53] Chris Jackson: And since I’ve learned that fact or that idea, I found it very important to include that into the conversation. course. Because I’m not prepared to venerate Washington or any of his contemporaries or any that followed him with any sort of virtue because, well, at least when they died, Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you’re right you know what?

[00:32:16] The Evolution of Historical Understanding

[00:32:16] Chris Jackson: I’ve also learned that there’s a. There’s a process by which we, the history gets, the history is living, right? And then as eras move on, then the story is told, it’s codified somehow, generally, by sitting out in the sun and drying for a bit. And then we just kind of like, assume that role, and then we start Promoting it. And we’re still not past that. We’re really not past the sort of post civil war slash reconstruction, construction of the American narrative. We’re still just sort of like the general public is still sort of learning why all these statues just got taken down. And why would you want to take down a statue?

[00:32:53] Because it was based on lies. So we don’t, and we don’t want to live in that space. So, social change takes a long time to, to actually evolve and, and to happen. With that, 

[00:33:05] Revisiting Mount Vernon: A Changed Perspective

[00:33:05] Chris Jackson: I, when I went to see, when I went to visit Mount Vernon, the first time I was 11 years

[00:33:11] old. So everything is just sort of like in a postcard, right? Then the next time that I actually went there was in preparation for this role. And the first place that I went, As a kid was to see all of the stuff that was old, the antiques, the real things. What did Washington touch? When I came back the second time, I came back. And the first place that I had to go to before I would go into that house were the slave quarters, Yes, because I had a different awareness and there were different things that were important to me. And instead of thinking about what did Washington touch? I’m thinking about, well, which slave planted that tree? And that fence row, that, that stone row that goes on for three quarters of a mile, who did that? And Washington’s teeth weren’t wooden. They were ripped out of another human being’s mouth and sent to a dentist in Philadelphia.

[00:34:09] Like these are different concerns. These are, it’s a different awareness, right? So, and I, and I make that point because our understanding evolves over time if we allow it to, and if we pursue it.

[00:34:20] The Power of History and Storytelling

[00:34:20] You can’t just sort of like, let it fall on you. You got to chase after it much in the work that you do.

[00:34:25] Chris Jackson: People can’t know something different unless you show them something different. And if you are in a position as a history, historian to share that, then God bless, because that’s the only way to sort of reverse, not undo the narrative, but just bring it to the sun. Let it be the real thing. And let it be all of those things.

[00:34:43] And there’s nothing that I could have ever done or said as an actor or an artist portraying this guy’s life that would have changed the facts. Yeah. So you can humanize. I mean, it’s not to distract. It is not Lin’s. Lin’s intention was not to distract anyone, right? It just wasn’t. It wasn’t my intention to portray that.

[00:35:00] If someone received that or, or, or took away, that away, I have to live with that, but that was not, the artist’s intention is to paint a picture and the, the consumer or the, the, the person who comes to experience the art should be provoked and And then have a thought and whatever that thought happens to be as an artist, I’m open to that because that’s my job.

[00:35:24] My job isn’t to tell you how to think or what to think. It’s to show you something that might. inspire thought that might inspire the next great idea that might inspire the next great movement or the next great act of kindness or civil service. All of that, all of that. That’s, that’s my, that’s my job. I know what my job is.

[00:35:41] It’s, it’s, it’s as narrowly defined as possible, as it can be. But Washington Jefferson, Madison, Madison was the biggest slave holder in the, in the United States at the time. What I just learned from this, Michael Harriot’s wonderful book, Black AF History, was that the number of slaves from, from the English perspective, the number of slaves that you owned, you’ve got 50 acres of land for every slave that you owned. Which incentivized the practice of shadow slavery from the Africans. So, and I’ve been, I’ve been studying this stuff for a while. I know a lot, but I never knew 

[00:36:22] that one fact, right? So, it, it, you’re all, there’s 

[00:36:25] always more, you’re right, there’s always more to learn. And that’s why history provides a really amazing picture because even in our research, there’s so many people doing it and now you just have to get to the information, but I never 

[00:36:36] knew that. And as that translates then to the first thing I thought about was, well, of course they owned as many slaves as they could. Of course they were incentivized to do it in spite of, England banning the practice. Of course all of this stuff happened and it doesn’t, it doesn’t it doesn’t take away from the fact.

[00:36:54] The facts, the timelines, the actions. I look at these men and I say, they never lived up to the ideals, but my God, they, whether they intended to or not created a platform on a piece of paper. They wrote things down that had never been written before. And from that, we were able to aspire to all of these very natural rights and then, and, and continue the tradition of the enlightenment.

[00:37:24] We are lucky that they wrote better than they were.

[00:37:27] Yeah. That’s what I always say. we’re lucky, we’re lucky. And it’s not that there weren’t people in the, in the Continental Congress that weren’t already beating the drum, but there were just so few that it didn’t permeate through, that at the, at the moment at the time, but so many of the things that we’re fighting for now are, are, are based around the ideas that these men.

[00:37:50] We’re able to get down in spite of themselves. And that’s it. If you’re a spiritual person, I will say that is, that is nothing short of a miracle or an act of God, because men will always find a way to get in their

[00:38:01] own way, 

[00:38:01] And always find a way to let their, their most base selves be the thing that they lead with but like to, to, to come, to, come into all of this enlightened and aspirational thought in spite of the things that they were doing on the side or, kind of leading with is kind of a

[00:38:18] miracle. So it’s kind of hard to not buy into the whole America or being sort of, or ordained and especially anointed or appointed to create a space where as many people can be free as

[00:38:31] possible. 

[00:38:32] History is always there 

[00:38:32] Jenn: That’s what I always say. I always say we were, we are reaching towards an ideal. that we’ve never quite gotten to. We have never gotten to yet, but we keep reaching for it. And we keep trying to be better and we keep trying to learn. And like you said, like you hope to inspire the, what I do with history is I try to, I don’t tell people what to think either, but I try to teach, teach them how, how to historians show you the information.

[00:39:00] what’s a primary source, what’s a secondary source, right? Who is saying what? And like you said, even with how the story changes at Mount Vernon, how the focus of the story changes at Mount Vernon, I always tell people, reach back. History is always there. You know, The people who made Washington are there.

[00:39:19] They’re still there. You reach back and you can find them. Right now, we’re still trying to find their names. I wrote a whole paper in grad school called Say My Name, Say My Name because the names get lost sometimes and even trying to find the name is hard, but they’re there. Those people are there and to remember them, to remember what they did, like you said, who planted that tree, who made, who put that, we’re remembering their part in building the country.

[00:39:45] And it’s just as important as George Washington. And that’s what I think is so great about a person of color playing George Washington is like you’re showing that they’re just as important at building the country. I always say every other person’s a woman. They were just as important and is building this country as the men, even though they don’t write 

[00:40:03] Chris Jackson: question. 

[00:40:04] Jenn: so. They’re there. They’re just, they’re doing their job. It might not be a formal power, but their informal power is still there. And I love that, Chris. I love that. Yeah.

[00:40:16] Chris Jackson: And you see their, their fingerprints on all of it. Do you know what I mean? I just feel like now when we tell the story, we get to tell it without the cynicism, without the, the, the patronizing tone and the, that, that. Often. And in spite of having eight children, she also, what do you mean in spite of having eight children?

[00:40:33] A woman would bear eight children in, in, in a fairly, really fairly primitive setting and yet have a thought and yet teach herself how to read. I was doing a reading a couple of weeks ago of this play. And we were the character. One of the characters I was portraying was a man by the name of Alan Allensworth.

[00:40:50] And he was a Colonel in the, in the U S army and around the. Turn of the 19th century founded a town out in California, but one of the things that he, this character was constantly saying that the playwright didn’t know is that, I taught myself to read. I taught myself to read. Well, 92 percent of black folks in America couldn’t read at the end, the day after slavery ended and within 20 years, over 60 percent could, and no time in the history of, of, of modern man kind of has.

[00:41:18] That kind of change ever happened. amazing. Do you know what I mean? Like it’s, it’s knowing these things that will shape your, even just the, I’m an actor doing a reading that, a hundred people saw cause they’re developing something. But as an actor, knowing Mm hmm. put me in a position to educate the people that actually wrote the thing Yes. Yes, know what I’m saying?

[00:41:41] So like the importance of just sharing information, especially historically based information is such a profound thing. It’s such a profound thing. It’s such a powerful and empowering kind

[00:41:51] of thing to 

[00:41:52] do. 

[00:41:52] Jenn: absolutely. I, I completely agree with you. And you know, Chris, I really thank you for having this conversation with You know, I find it important to tell the stories that don’t want to be told Right. And like getting deep into the South and I’m, I uncover stuff and I tell these and, you know, sometimes people don’t want to hear it from, from this.

[00:42:11] But I always try to tell them, listen to the history, not me, listen to the history, listen to what I’m trying to tell you. And even if you just want to read it, it needs to be And like Ida B. Wells was always like, turn the light of truth on it, right? The truth needs to be told. It’s there. Just someone’s got to shine the light on it,

[00:42:28] Chris Jackson: I love that quote too. Turn a lot of 

[00:42:31] truth on it. I do. I’ve 

[00:42:32] always loved that 

[00:42:33] quote. 

[00:42:33] Yeah. 

[00:42:34] Inspiration to learn history

[00:42:34] Jenn: And I will say, Chris, Hamilton inspired so many people to learn history.

[00:42:43] Chris Jackson: Yeah.

[00:42:44] Jenn: I mean, I left school to go to Hamilton. I left the class. My professor was like, go. I was like, I’m going to miss 

[00:42:50] Chris Jackson: Dig. 

[00:42:51] Jenn: I’m going to go how much She’s like, go. She’s like, Jennifer, go see 

[00:42:54] Chris Jackson: Tell us about it. 

[00:42:55] Jenn: Tell us about it. And then I brought her 

[00:42:57] back like stuff from the gift shop. And

[00:42:59] Chris Jackson: Yeah, you did. 

[00:43:00] Yeah, you did. I love 

[00:43:02] it. 

[00:43:02] Jenn: like.

[00:43:02] And we stayed staged door and they signed her. It was amazing. uh, But she, you know, getting a master’s degree of history. I tell people all the time, everyone’s a historian, right? Everybody, it’s hard. Like, why would I have a master’s degree in this? But I tell people, so I can learn what makes something historically accurate.

[00:43:20] How are historians measuring the truth? Like how there are secondary sources that can get very. tied into primary sources and they can, you can believe that actually what happened, but if you can’t find it, like I really had to dig deep because you hear some of the same stuff over and over, but what really happened, right?

[00:43:40] What was really happening that day? What was, who really said what? and so those are the kinds of things that are kind of harder for historians to do and harder to pull uh, but I really thank you. You know, Hamilton meant a lot to me. I have the shirt. I have the book. And as a historian, I felt like you really validated my work.

[00:44:00] And so I thank, I thank you guys for what you did.

[00:44:03] Chris Jackson: I appreciate that. That’s, that’s kind of a common thing. Response from true historians. Cause it’s I mean, the majority of the things that as a historian, the majority of the things that you do are completely. by yourself, you’re in the stacks reading micro what used to be micro fish, but now you’re like digging, like you’re, you’re driving two hours to, to go, stand next to a pile of weeds.

[00:44:26] There has no marker, but you know that this is a place where something happened, and the only reason why any of this ground has any value at all. In our memory is knowing what has happened in certain places. It’s why we venerate battlegrounds. It’s why we commemorate or memorialize places that, you know where things that are significant happened so that you don’t repeat if they were bad, that you don’t repeat them. There was, there was a tremendous amount of, of a racially based unrest in, in my hometown. And, my, my hometown is, is South, well, South of the Mason Dixon line. But it was a pit of vipers for a hundred years. There was a lynching in my, in my town of a young man who, is believed that he was mentally impaired and yet didn’t stop them.

[00:45:17] And I was, God, I was. I didn’t really, I’d heard ramp rumblings about it growing up there, but I never knew the facts of it until, several years ago when I was doing some research and came across it, John Lewis marched in our, in our, in our, my hometown I saw not six months ago, I discovered pictures. That John Lewis marched at the, at the public swimming pool because it was segregated. And when a young black boy got in the water, they drained the pool and closed it down, filled it with dirt the next, like next week. But these are things that I never knew. Thurgood Marshall came to my, came to my town right after he had joined the NAACP to bail out one of the workers who had been arrested in my hometown. At the local customs house, which is, which held the courthouse. And I didn’t find that out until, several years ago when I was researching a project that I’m writing. So like all of these things, like I come from a town of 1500 people, it’s not that hard to know what happened, someone’s always willing, to talk, but I was 17, when I left there, so 18 years old, I didn’t know to ask those things and believe it or not.

[00:46:18] My history teacher lived there when all was all happening and he still didn’t bring it up, and I was curious. I asked questions. So my point is, is that, once you get a taste of how powerful knowledge is, it is absolutely

[00:46:34] infectious. and if you give into that, from my perspective as an artist, the quote I live by is that my job is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. And historians have a very, a very similar path. If you’re doing it right. If you’re doing it right. If you’re telling stories that didn’t happen,

[00:46:56] that’s something else. But if you’re doing it like you are it’s just enough to put it there and think what you will, say what you will, change how you will, or not.

[00:47:07] But you can’t ignore it because the burden of knowledge rests upon the bearer of it. Once you know something, you can’t pretend 

[00:47:14] to not know it. Now you have your own conscience to wrestle with. 

[00:47:18] That’s what it is, but that’s what historians do. 

[00:47:20] Jenn: Oh, I love it. 

[00:47:22] Thank you, Chris. Thank you for giving us this time today. Thank you for liking that video.

[00:47:30] Chris Jackson: Happy to talk to you guys. 

[00:47:31] I’m telling you you’re living a life of artists You’re doing stuff that you that is interesting to you and that you know is important and it reaches people It’s just nice to know it. Sometimes it’s nice to hear back from the world because you, you make the thing and then you put it out in the world and it’s making, it’s making TV, theater is a different thing, but making television, it’s like you shoot something two months ago and then it comes out five, five months later, hope people like it, you forgot you did it, or you’re still living in it, but no one else is there.

[00:47:58] There’s no audience, so it’s, it’s in the immediate, it’s, it’s great to talk to you guys. I really enjoy, I do really enjoy what you guys are doing. 

[00:48:05] Scott: Thank, thank you again so Chris. Um, I mean, for our audience, I mean, do you have any kind of things coming out places to you want people to look you up or anything like that?

[00:48:14] I mean, we’re See next?

[00:48:16] A Look Ahead: Future Projects and Reflections

[00:48:16] Chris Jackson: Oh, I am I am, you just, you can see I’m in my 

[00:48:19] studio right now. I’m, I’m working on a record. I’m writing a musical. I’ve got three TV shows that are. In various stages of development. And one of them is a historical 

[00:48:32] drama that is based on the Pullman porters, from George Pullman from of 

[00:48:37] railway fame starts four days after the end of the civil war. And we, it’s an anthology which is, which has been a really, it’s a fun Americana kind of story, which is going to be a lot of fun to, if we can. ever finish the damn thing. But there’s, like I, I have always tried my best and worked really hard at doing as many things well as I could.

[00:49:01] And it’s kind of, cause it kind of fills up sort of the curiosity in, in my life. And it challenges me to try to do things that I’m not good at at all. But this is what we’re doing. So, Sex and the City doesn’t really, we don’t pick back up until May and it’s probably going to be next calendar year before that comes out.

[00:49:17] Of course, next year is the big 10 year anniversary for Ham. So I’m sure there’ll be some, things floating around around that too. But right now I’m, I’m, I’m burning macaroni and cheese in my oven. And torturing my kids as they watch me eat it, just because I have to. being a good dad. And, that’s it.

[00:49:34] That’s it. And and, and trying to trying to learn as much as I can about as much as I can and, and talk to good 

[00:49:39] folks like you 

[00:49:40] guys. 

[00:49:40]