We’re diving into the wild world of “The Horse Soldiers,” a classic John Wayne movie that brings Civil War history to life with a Hollywood twist. We’re joined by Matt from the Addressing Gettysburg podcast, and together we explore the high-stakes caper of Colonel Marlow and his crew as they embark on a daring mission in enemy territory.
This isn’t your average battlefield drama; it’s packed with action, a bit of romance, and some seriously witty banter between Wayne and Constance Towers’ character. We also dig into the film’s historical backdrop, sharing fun facts and insights that make this movie a surprising gem.
So, grab your popcorn and get ready for a history lesson with a side of laughs and some classic John Wayne charm!
Links referenced in this episode:
A Horse Soldiers (John Wayne) Review with Addressing Gettysburg
[00:00:00]
Introduction
Matt: And I, Steven Lang almost punched me in the face. I said, because said we. Okay. You wanna hear a story?
Scott: Yeah.
Welcome to Talk With History. I’m your host Scott, here with my wife and historian Jen.
Jenn: Hello.
Scott: Today we are joined with a very special guest and fellow history podcast hosts Matt Callery. Matt is the host of the Addressing Gettysburg Podcast, which our audience has probably heard of. And if you haven’t, go give it a listen.
In 2019, the goal to prove that history is not boring, Matt launched addressing Gettysburg and the podcast has since earned widespread recognition, including a showcase on the Today Show. He dives deep into the Gettysburg Campaign featuring interviews with acclaim authors, historians, and licensed battlefield guides to get we, we get a lot of those and I enjoy seeing that on Patreon.
Matt’s show has become a comprehensive resource for exploring the military tactics, human interest [00:01:00] stories, and lasting legacy of this defining American event that happened in the beautiful countryside of Pennsylvania. Welcome Matt to talk with history.
Matt: Thank you very much. That was, uh, very nice.
Scott: Hell, I try, I try to be over the top and overly gracious. Yeah, and I’m introducing our guests and then, you know, we’ll, we’ll just, we’ll change that. I’ll change it in the edit. Thank you. This conversation proves otherwise
Matt: I was like, I wrote it for you.
Scott: Alright.
Diving into ‘The Horse Soldiers’
Scott: Now, Matt is here to talk a bit of civil war history with us, but through the lens of Hollywood and framed by the larger than life actor John Wayne. Tonight we’re diving into a civil war epic. That’s pure John Ford, pure John Wayne, and pure Hollywood Gold, the horse soldiers, the gripping 1959 movie based loosely on the actual historical daring [00:02:00]of gru’s raid.
This isn’t your slow battlefield drama. This is a high stakes clock, is ticking caper deep in enemy territory. Wayne Stars as Colonel John Marlowe, a hard-nosed union commander. Tasked with leading a calvary unit on a dangerous mission into the heart of Confederate Mississippi. Their objective to hit critical railway hub of Newton Station and destroy the Confederate supply line, its mission of sabotage and speed and failure is not an option, but the perils of the battlefield are nothing compared to the drama inside his own ranks.
Marlowe’s practical military first approach instantly puts him at odds with Major Henry Kendall, a unit surgeon, played by William Holden. Kendall is constantly reminding Marlowe that he’s a doctor first and a soldier second, creating a moral and professional battle within the union lines. That’s almost intense as the one they’re fighting with the rebels.
And then there’s Ms. Hannah Hunter played by Constance Towers, the quintessential southern [00:03:00] Belle who threw a stroke of bad luck for her overhears the entire top secret plan. Now, Marlo has to haul this witty, high maintenance Confederate s. Along as a prisoner. Let’s just say she’s slightly less cooperative than a money Mississippi Road.
And Marlo finds himself in the unenviable position of commanding a military unit while simultaneously managing the war’s least enthusiastic Travel Companion. The Horse Soldiers is a tense, character driven adventure that perfectly balances action, ethics, and of course, a little bit of forced and unexpected romance.
John Wayne and John Ford’s Cinematic Magic
Scott: Okay, Matt, so talk to us about why this, I believe is one of your, your favorites of John Wayne. We got the comment from you after we put out True Grit a while ago. Yeah. And you said, oh, we have to talk about the horse soldiers. So, so talk to me about. Why you love this movie?
Matt: Well, first of all, I didn’t [00:04:00] properly thank you for having me on before when you introduced me.
So thank you for having me on. I do enjoy your show whenever I get a chance to catch it. And I don’t really get a chance to watch other, actually, it’s not even that I don’t have a chance. I choose not to watch other history podcasts ’cause I don’t wanna a accidentally copy, you know? ’cause we all do it anyway.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. ’cause you know, you just get into this. So, uh, but I do, when I see yours come up in my feed, I do make sure to watch it because I like, I like the way you guys do it, so there you go. Oh, thank you on that. Um, so what was the question? No, it was why, why are we doing this? Right?
Scott: Well, I had never heard of it until you brought it up and then when watched you were like, this is great.
Jenn: Yeah. Yes. God. Yeah.
Scott: Why? What about you, Jen?
Jenn: I, same thing. I had never seen it either. And I’m a huge John Wayne fan.
Matt: Yeah. Well, not huge enough.
Jenn: Not huge enough. Right.
Matt: I saw the one where he plays, uh, Genghis Kahn, or whatever the hell it is. But, uh, yes. I I never [00:05:00] saw that one.
Memorable Scenes and Characters
Jenn: And, you know, and I, I, we, I’ll be honest with you, Matt, I watched this and loved it.
So Good.
Matt: Of course you did. Right? It’s John Wayne, and it’s John Ford. Yes. And William Holden. Yes. Right. And it has all the John Ford classic like tropes. Right. You got the drunken Irish sergeant. Mm-hmm. I don’t know if Victor McLaughlin was dead by this point, or if he just wasn’t available, but they had another drunk fire sergeant, right?
Yep. Uh, you, you got, uh, the, the, just the, the, the hoof pounding, heart pounding, uh, riding like, you know, like the, the horse riding in John Ford movies is so good. Yeah, it really is so good.
Scott: And even the opening
Matt: shot,
Jenn: he likes the panning shots of the Yes.
Matt: That opening shot, I just rewatched it right before doing this, I came home early, uh, and I was like, I gotta rewatch it and refresh my memory with this and everything.
And I’d usually fast forward right through credits, but I love that [00:06:00] opening sequence, the silhouette of the cavalry on the ridge. And the camera doesn’t move. They just go and they’re, and they’re singing the song. He always has a song that the cavalry’s singing and uh, and then when it’s over, it cuts to the stairwell on a riverboat.
Yep. And you, a guy walks down and you’re like, whatever. The second guy, third guy, I forget which order he’s in, comes down and it’s the Duke. Yeah,
Scott: yeah.
Matt: And he’s got that Duke walk and he’s great in a wet poncho and his hat is all soaking wet and everything. And. From that first shot. I’m just like, I remember as a little kid, I was, I was hooked.
I was like, this guy’s so cool. You know? Yeah. He reminded me of my grandfather too, so it kind of helped. But yeah. Um, I loved that movie. I, I remember as a little boy my, there was a video store on the way home from my father’s work, and once in a while he’d stop in and he’d rent [00:07:00] videos and he always, and I think, I think this was a strategic move on his part, because I think he saw even in the eighties, which, you know, we look back at the eighties ago, oh, you know, that’s Queen.
But I think he saw movies at that time just getting shitty. Right. And, and he’s, you know, he is like, it’s, we’re not gonna suddenly get better, right? Yeah. Right. So I gotta show this kid what real movies are, what a real movie star is. And so I’m gonna bring home some Duke movies, and he would, and, and, uh, I remember when he brought this one home, and I don’t know what it was, it just grabbed me and I loved it.
Historical Context and Accuracy
Matt: Um, it’s, there’s a lot of things, you know, watching it today. There’s a lot of things, the story I couldn’t care about. I, I could not care less about the story. All right. I certainly not the whole romance. Mm-hmm. Duke, Constance Towers, um, you know, uh, but I liked [00:08:00] the, the kind of the comedy and mischief. That her mm-hmm.
In the mix kind of adds to the whole thing. Like when they’re trying to hide from that confederate brigade across the river. Yeah. And she goes running out screaming, hell
Scott: yeah. How can they
Matt: tackle her to the ground? Like, that’s fun, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah, I just, there was something about it as a little boy that it just really grabbed my imagination and, uh, you know, as I get older, I know now it’s the combination.
It’s the Ford, Wayne, Holden combination there. It’s just great. And then you got other, like John Ford, uh, staples, uh, like, uh, Hank Warden who plays the mm-hmm. One of the scouts is the preacher and he is like, he talks all weird. I can’t remember the line that he has, but, um, uh, he’s in a lot of those movies.
Uh oh. And then there’s this, the scene [00:09:00] with the two, uh, Confederate deserters and the sheriff. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And that’s Uncle Jesse. Did you recognize Uncle Jesse from Dukes of Hazard? Dukes of
Jenn: Hazard
Matt: one? That Pat, I didn’t realize that that was Uncle Jesse.
Jenn: That’s perfect. How perfect.
Matt: Like that.
Oh wow. And the other guy is Stru Martin, who’s been in a lot of other John Wayne movies. Mm-hmm. He was in True Grit. He played the horse grade. Yep. I think he was also in Cool Hand, Luke, if I’m not mistaken, I, is that what we have is failure to communicate? I believe he’s that. Yeah.
Jenn: That sounds like him.
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Production Challenges and Behind the Scenes
Matt: Um, so there’s a lot of good things about that movie, but ironically it didn’t do well when it came out. No,
Scott: no. So, so do you know, and actually I’m, I’m glad you brought that up ’cause I pulled this up. So, so do you want to guess some of the other, like the top 10, top 15 movies of 1959? I’ll let you guys guess.
Jen, you can’t look at my notes.
Jenn: I just saw your notes.
Matt: I’m going to, let’s see, [00:10:00] 1959. Oh God, I’m not good with that stuff, but, uh, how about this? Give me a clue about one a cl but make it good clue about one Charlton Heston
Jenn: chariot ride.
Matt: Oh, uh, the, uh, yeah, you know it. Wait, that the, not the 10 Commandments? No, the other one. The other one? Yeah. Ben Hur.
Scott: Ben Hur.
Benhur. So Ben number one. Ben. Ben, Ben Hur. That one was a, the number one massive, huge, huge hit. Um, some of the top ones that people would recognize, the shaggy dog, some like it hot. So that came out. Yeah. Okay. Um, then, um, north by Northwest. Um, great.
Matt: I can’t believe I didn’t get that one. That’s one. And actually
Scott: Brio Bravo came out that same year.
Um, so Oh, I thought that was
Movie: okay.
Scott: I mean, that’s, I I looked on a couple sites just to kinda make sure. So I love your brother. Good. So there was some, there were some big, uh, big movies, you know, at the time. And I think that, I think this, like you said, it didn’t do well. So I was trying to find like where it was on [00:11:00] the list and it would’ve been top 20, top 30, something like that.
But, um,
Matt: well, yeah, I heard, I read that it broke even and, uh, but Duke and William Holden both made 750,000 on that. I, I saw that too. Back.
Jenn: That was like, yeah,
Scott: I mean that’s, that’s Tom Cruise money back then. And then they, yeah, right, right.
Jenn: They’re sharing top billing too. Yes. Like it’s John Wayne and William Holden.
So it kind of let you know. William Holden was a, a star with as himself too. Wayne is a little older in this. He’s 52. Holden is I think 41. There’s 11 year age difference between them. Okay. And you really can’t tell. I really, Wayne never looks as old, I think not until it gets old. Not until like true grit and stuff, right?
Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, you know, when it was when he had lung cancer, that’s when he started to look old. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think that was 64. 63 60. Yeah. He, um, sense
Jenn: of kitty elder.
Matt: [00:12:00] Yeah. That was his first movie back. Yeah.
Jenn: Mm-hmm. And he had a,
Matt: when they were doing the, the shootout scene in the creek between takes, he had to grab an oxygen mask.
Yep. And uh, ’cause he only had one lung.
Scott: Mm-hmm.
Matt: Um, no, but that, what was the other thing you just said? That, um, oh shit. I can’t remember. Sorry. Can I curse? Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah. The William Holden was, they’re both like big stars at the time. Um, she, constant powers is only 26. So I 26. It’s so
Scott: gross.
Jenn: Right? So she’s like half the age of Joan playing.
She’s
Scott: Wow. Yeah. Right.
Jenn: So I was like, I,
The Movie Review
Scott: so I will say one, one of the things, one of the things that surprised me about this movie when I watched it, ’cause I think I watched it. We had first started, started talking about trying to do this like probably over a year ago. Um, yeah. Then we moved and, and mm-hmm.
Things just kind of happened. But I had watched it initially after we had first started talking about it, and I watched it by myself. I think she was out, off doing something and I’m, and we always joke, I’m not the history buff, right. I, I’m the production guy. I like, I like kind of doing the [00:13:00] behind the scenes stuff, but I was surprised again, how much I enjoyed this movie and I thought she actually did a phenomenal job playing opposite of someone like John Wayne.
Yeah. Yeah. Did too. And it’s even more amazing that she was 26.
Jenn: And then she’s playing up That whole, I love, I love when they first meet her and she plays up that southern bell and like
Matt: to use it to her band this way, stereotype for her to say fiddly d.
Jenn: Yeah. Right. Like she’s just playing up that whole persona, trying to like throw them off.
And, uh, it’s working for most of them, but, uh, yeah.
Matt: You know that, it’s funny though that their age, because I’m, I’m 47, so 52 is not much older than me at this
Jenn: point. Mm-hmm. We’re the same age. Matt, you and I, uh, are we? Mm-hmm.
Matt: Oh, congratulations.
Jenn: Yeah. It’s a good year.
Matt: Yes. Okay. For you maybe. Um, John Wayne looks much older than me, than I do, I [00:14:00] think, or at least I think people matured faster then I’m still, you know, high school.
I, I think they lived a little harder. Yeah. Yeah. They lived a little harder and, and you just. Once you were able, you just went out into the world and you made something of yourself. You know, like the, the Constance Towers was 26 is kind of astounding to us because her, her character and the, and the way she plays it, it shows a lot of maturity and absolutely sophistication.
Mm-hmm. That, I mean, I know she’s an actress, but you gotta be able to draw on something. Yeah. Right. Like, you can’t play a rocket scientist if you can’t pronounce a word that has more than five syllables. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Like, you, you know what I mean? Like, so, uh, that she’s able to do that and go toe to toe them.
I, yeah. I didn’t think, I figured she was in her thirties, to be honest. Yeah. I didn’t realize you said 26 though.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. She was coming
Jenn: 33.
Matt: Yeah. One of the things, is she still alive or does she just die recently?
Jenn: I, I
Matt: don’t know. I’ll have to look that to [00:15:00] look that up.
Jenn: She’s still alive. She’s 92.
Matt: Wow. 92.
Good for her.
Jenn: I know. Good for her. I’d like to meet her.
Scott: Yeah. Little cheers to her. I mean, part of, part of the, what I was impressed by and what I enjoyed about the movie was how they played off of each other. They were always, it was almost like, it almost felt like a, like a sibling type rivalry. Mm-hmm.
Right? Yes. Like, but they, they were able to work in some romance in, you know, quote unquote that, but that wasn’t the focus, like you said. Right. But John Wayne was always trying to like, get his dig at her, and then she was always trying to do the same to him. And you’d see her smirking, you know, over here when he, he, he saw, he pissed her off or something like that.
Mm-hmm. And she got all, got all in a huff and that, he’s like, okay, good. I, that’s what I was going for.
Matt: Yeah, you’re right. And I, I wonder if it’s the age difference that makes it seem like a big brother picking on his little sister. Yeah, it
Scott: was, it was, it was a little bit that dynamic and I just really enjoyed that.
’cause I think, like you said, that was kind of the comedy piece, right? They’re tackling her, she’s [00:16:00] trying to run for help or you know, he’s. He’s acting like he like the two bums, right? Yeah. The, the two guys, the um, right. And he goes and socks with the
sheriff
and he goes and socks, he puts his gloves on.
She’s just standing there. She’s all mad that he didn’t do anything more. And then he punches ’em both out in the face. Classic John Wayne. One punch. Right. Right. And uh, and then you see the, her face change. She’s like, oh, maybe he does care. Right. Uhhuh, he punches him out. But yeah, what girl wouldn’t be, I enjoyed that constant kind of push, pull, push pull between them.
Matt: Well, and then he goes over to her and asks if she’s satisfied now. And she says, well, yeah, I guess you kind of surprised me, or whatever. And, and he goes, you know, uh, your sense of justice surprises me. And he goes, justice. He’s like, they would’ve been extra baggage. Yeah, because I, I couldn’t trust them anymore than I, she’s like, you trust
me?
And he’s like, yeah.
Like, yeah, she, she wants him to go, no, no, no, no, no. But he’s just like, yeah, no, I don’t trust you. And then he is rides off.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: Right. That’s good stuff. [00:17:00] It’s good writing. Go ahead.
Jenn: No, I was just saying it’s still showing this conflict with the north and the south. Yeah. Right. Yes. Like, but, but beyond everything else, he’s a union soldier and she’s a confederate, like, so they still are adhering to their loyalties there.
Yes. Even if they’re man and woman, even if they have some kind of attraction towards each other, it doesn’t matter. Their loyalties are with their, uh, respective governments, you know? So. Yes.
Matt: And you know what I like about that too is, uh, and this is just the way movies used to be made. Uh, and I don’t say this as, as a prude, but like, uh, okay.
I, I understand. You know, soldiers go off. They leave a woman behind. Maybe they meet a woman while they’re out in the field, and romance happens. Sex happens. I get it. But I, I don’t, I’m at the age. I don’t need to see that in my war movies anymore. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you can hint at it, that’s fine, but gimme the goddamn war.
And, uh, and [00:18:00] so like the fact that he doesn’t even really touch her in a romantic way until he leaves her, when he gr holds her hand. And he just says, tells her that he is in love with her. I was like, thank you, John Ford. Like we didn’t need today. If they remade that movie today, there’d be a sex scene under the moonlight behind a bush somewhere while all the soldiers were asleep.
Right. Or totally. He’d sneak, she’d sneak into his tent or something like that and, and it would be 45 seconds of completely useless screen time, but to see a boob or two.
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah. And I agree because I feel like, I feel like you don’t even need that. I feel like the angst is, it’s much more powerful. The,
Scott: the tension.
Jenn: Yeah. The tension is much more powerful. Yeah. Right. And I, I, I love that. I love that scenario between the two of them and where they’re just. They can appreciate who each other is in their respective [00:19:00] character, but it’s not, it’s not who they are, you know? Right. So, right.
Scott: Yeah.
Jenn: Um,
Scott: now, now our audience may not know this, and, and John Wayne, John Ford fans may not know this, but this was actually, I believe I look this up.
John Ford’s only Civil War kind of specific movie, right? The only movie he made that was about an, an event quote, unquote, based on, you know, real facts, real life about the Civil War. Now, he had a lot of movies where John Wayne or the character. Came out of the Civil War. They were a Civil War veteran of some sort.
Right. This was the only one. So do you think that’s kind of why it appealed to you a little bit more than others, especially with your kind of love of Gettysburg Civil War? No, because
Matt: at that age, no. I hadn’t even really, I hadn’t been to Gettysburg. I had, I wasn’t, I was superficially into history. Like I was into the look of it all.
Mm-hmm. I’ve always been a visual person, and I think the, what [00:20:00] drew me into the somewhat 18th, but mostly 19th century is just the aesthetic of it. Uh, first. Yeah. Sure. And I think that’s why I, I like to paint and I like to, I like photography and videography. I like to watch movies. I just like pretty looking things, or not pretty necessarily, but interesting looking things.
Yeah. And so I, when I saw the horse Soldiers, I don’t even know if I was 10 yet, I might’ve been like eight. Or even younger. I, I, I was very young when I watched that and, um, I, you know, like I probably watched it the same year. I saw they died with their boots on for the first time. Mm-hmm. I dunno if you ever saw that with Rol Flynn,
Scott: Earl Flynn, yeah.
About, yeah. And all
Matt: those like classic old, completely unrealistic war movies. Yeah. Um,
Jenn: they Die with the Boots on is definitely not historically accurate.
Matt: No. It was the stupidest movie ever. But I loved it as a kid.
Jenn: [00:21:00] Yes.
Matt: And, um, and, and I was caught up in the, in the, in the romance of it, in the, the pageantry of it and everything like that.
I thought it was all really cool. It didn’t have a clue about getting shot or anything like that.
Jenn: Well, yeah. And John Ford, I mean, he shoots beautifully and like you said, so you’re, you’re loving. The uniform, the calvary, right? Yeah. Everyone’s on horses. Yeah. And they’re wearing the, the scarfs and they have the bugle and they’re wearing the hats.
Right. And they have the boots, the breaches, like it’s this whole look of them. Yeah. And then there’s tons of them.
Matt: And the look that they used there, I believe were those were leftover Spanish American war uniforms for the most part. Well, the John Wayne and, and William Holden and a couple of the other characters, they’re wearing blouses with, um, you know, suspenders over them.
And they’re, they’re rank insignias are on the sleeve of, or on the shoulder, the shoulder boards for the [00:22:00] officers, or, uh, the chevrons for the, uh, noncoms, like they’re on the shirt. Yeah. Um, there’s a few, like Colonel Secord, he wears a, a. A, a wool jacket. Mm-hmm. Now, I’m not a uniform Nazi, so I could be getting this wrong.
That looks more civil war to me, but I would bet that’s probably left over from the Indian wars. Uh, but I could be wrong on that one. There. Somebody watching I, I’m sure knows the difference. Um, but they, but it looks cooler. Mm-hmm. The Spanish American War uniform looks cooler on John Wayne and on William Holden.
Yeah. And, and you put them on a horse with that, the lines like this, the, you know, yeah. The lines of the suspenders and the piping on the pants with these big, tall, you know, duke was a tall guy. Yeah. He’s on this horse and his legs stretched out and everything. It looks good. It’s aesthetically pleasing in the shot, and so It does.
Yeah. And, and back then. This, this notion of historical [00:23:00] accuracy in movies is a very recent thing back then. They’re like, fuck it, make a movie. It’s a picture. They would say, make it, make it look good. Yeah. It’s a picture. Just make the picture. Yeah. It’s all about just getting it done, you know? So, but I, I don’t know.
I just, yeah. I think it’s so cool. There’s, he’s, uh, he plays Sherman in, uh, how the West was won. Mm-hmm. And there’s a scene about, I believe it’s Shiloh. Mm-hmm. Um, short scene with him in it playing Sherman. So he has a cameo there, but it’s not a Civil War movie, but he is in the Civil War section of that movie.
Yeah, you’re right. Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah, yeah. So it is, it is. And I know Ford likes the Civil War character and like when we were talking about 1959 and how this movie is not doing as great. There’s been a lot of Civil War movies made even in 1959. Like they’re making a lot of Civil War movies still. So people are kind of at the point where like, okay, like this is a different story.
[00:24:00] Um, this is, it’s based on the group. They’re. I’m gonna say it wrong, Gruson, Gruen Raiders. Yes, I know, I’ve been saying it wrong. Um,
Scott: this my, my historian wife, you can’t pronounce alum. She always, so one of the things we always joke about, so instead of saying Corinth in Mississippi, she says, Corinth. And I was like, it’s Corinth.
Like Herin.
Matt: How do you say cavalry? I didn’t catch it. Do you say it word? I I said
Jenn: cavalry. Yeah,
Matt: yeah. But, um, yeah,
Scott: but
Jenn: yeah.
Scott: Smart as whip.
Jenn: I know the pronunciation always gets me, the big words always gets me. I’m always like a Aron, the nice Aron. Um, but no, I, I really do feel like the Civil War, I, I like that they took that story and reworked it a little bit, but that story.
It’s one of those great stories of the Civil War that not many people know about, but it’s there. Yeah. And kind of cool. And we were out like, this is kind of how I, we came back around. We had talked about the horse soldiers we’re like, yes, we’re gonna do this. I had gone out to Lag Grange. [00:25:00] I had gone out to, to shoot a house, Woodlawn, where Sherman had stayed.
This lady had bought Woodlawn
Scott: and he had made his Civil War headquarters there. He
Jenn: made his Civil War headquarters there. She invited me out to film the house. She had told me all these ghost stories there. I was like, awesome. And then she left me alone in the house. I was like, awesome. This is great.
Right. Wow. Which I’m always like, please don’t show yourself. I’m always, every time I’m alone in a, in a ghost house, I’m always like, please, if you show yourself, I’m gonna walk right out the door. So please don’t like, but if you want me to know something, I’ll kick it out. Huh.
Matt: Would you be afraid?
Jenn: I don’t think, I’m never afraid.
I just, it would startle me enough to be like, I don’t wanna mess around with it. Like, if a house tells me to get out, I’m getting out. Like I’m not gonna be Okay, well I’m just gonna figure this out and hang around and, and see what’s going on. No. Like, and pulled you guys, if I walk out of the room and walk back in and all the dining room chairs are on the table, I’m gonna keep walking.
Matt: Yeah, yeah. And leave the house. That’s probably wise. Yeah. Great. I’m like
Jenn: not doing this. Fair enough. Not doing this. [00:26:00]
Matt: So, um,
Jenn: but it was a super cool place and I was there and she’s, she’s, she had bought a couple places there and she’s trying to revitalize the whole LaGrange area and, uh, she told me to come down to the main street and look at some old photographs of Woodlawn and they had a, a historic marker for their, the grosses and Raiders.
And I’m like, oh yes, we’re soldiers. We need to do this. This is where they left from. They left from this little, oh. So that was the
Matt: reminder to get back in touch with me.
Jenn: I don’t, no. My reminder to watch this movie and to do this story. ’cause it really is based in history. Yes. Right? Yes. It’s,
Scott: it’s,
Jenn: and I love, I love that as much as it’s, he’s not Benjamin Gruson, uh, Eson was actually a musician.
I think he’s supposed to have been like a,
Scott: he, so, so John Wayne’s character and I, I remember writing this down, his character, he was like, he built railroads or whatever Yes. Like, and that before he joined the Army. And so that’s, I was one of the notes when I watched these movies, because I don’t retain them like my incredibly smart wife does.
Um, I take [00:27:00] notes on my phone and that was one of the things that I wrote down was John Wayne’s character. There’s this, again, push pull all throughout. And there’s this conflict in him. And obviously the conflict is with him and the doctor, but the conflict is also him and what he used to do and building railroads.
And now he’s going through and destroying railroads. Right. For the war.
Jenn: Yeah. And Gruen supposed to, in real life was a musician. It got kicked in the face of a kid. Hated horses. Right. Oh, really? And now he’s leading this, this raid. And uh, I think that they’re playing on that same kind of anti-hero kind of thing.
There’s someone who’s doing something very heroic, not in their character. Yeah. That they, you know, they’re following through with this mission that is so important. Yeah. And really requires a lot of, you know, strategy to do a raid. I try to explain to people like a raid is a lot like the Doolittle raid.
It’s not meant to really have a battle. You’re not really there to, to meet the enemy. You are there to hit and go as quick as you can. You need to [00:28:00]
Matt: wreak havoc
Jenn: like you’re there to just make them come to you and you’re gone by the time they get there. Right. You’re not there to meet the enemy. And uh, yeah.
And I thought it was so neat. Um, Gruen, did I say that right? Gruen, he studied raids, like he had never done one before. He studied how to do it, the strategy of it, and he is like, I’m just gonna do this old school strategy and I’m just gonna follow this. And it was very effective because he didn’t have much background in it.
Matt: Well, and I just read that, uh, his was one of like three or four mm-hmm. Other raids.
Scott: Yes.
Matt: Um, yeah. At the same time they were all supposed to go off at the same time to just create havoc and confuse the Confederates. Um, yeah. And, and what’s interesting is, uh, his commander was named Hurlbert. Mm-hmm. And, uh, so is Colonel Marlow’s?
Uh, yes. I don’t know why they kept his name. [00:29:00] There are some things in the movie that are similar or the same.
Jenn: Well, he meet. Grant, in the very beginning of the movie, he meets Grant.
Matt: Right,
Jenn: right. On the riverboat, like he’s meeting him in, in basically in Memphis, right? Yeah. He’s on the riverboat there. Yep.
And looking at maps and the charts, and they’re talking about where he is gonna go. And, and so that’s real, right?
Scott: That’s how the, that’s how the gruesome raids kind of started, right? Yes. Grant kind of gave the verbal order thing, verbal order, go do this. I’m not gonna write this down, but mm-hmm. Go do it.
Yep.
Matt: So that was
Jenn: accurate.
Matt: Yeah. And so it’s, it’s funny why I, I guess, but also I read that like the production was plagued with a lot of, one of the stunt men died and saw John Ford was like beside himself after that campus side. Yeah. Um, and like, just kind of didn’t wanna finish. And they got, and it really makes sense because the end of it is just like.
How the fuck did that all happen? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah.
Scott: So, so, so I, I read about that. I looked it up before, before we got on. [00:30:00] And so it was the stuntman who died was Fred Kennedy. And so this is a long man. So, so this stunt man had actually worked with Ford on numerous, numerous movies. And so right when this guy, when this guy died in that final scene, when at the, at the bridge and all that stuff, John Ford just decided to cut the movie short.
’cause they were originally from what I saw online, um,
Jenn: that’s right. They were supposed to go to Baton Rouge Ford lost.
Scott: Yeah. They were supposed to go down basically to Baton Rouge. It was supposed to go further south, kind of like the raid actually did. Mm-hmm. And kind of have some triumphant, you know, final scene.
But after that, I think they just kind of, you know, cut it short.
Jenn: Yeah. He just, he, they said he kinda lost his fire for the rest of the movie after that and just ended it, which I, well,
Matt: I guess that’s the, the problem with working, always working with the same people, you know, it’s like when one goes in the middle of a job, like that’s pretty tough.
Especially, it probably was not a fun thing to watch either. Whatever stunt he was doing that killed him, you know?
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: But yeah, those guys, there, there [00:31:00] was, uh, another shot when the cavalry’s running over the bridge when they’re charging in the end there, and one of the guys gets hit and goes to take the fall over the bridge and like, I guess doesn’t clear the, the railing, the side.
And like, like you could see like as he is going over his, his thighs hit the, the bridge itself. And I’m like, that had to, that had to hurt.
Jenn: Those was a real stuntman man. Yeah.
Matt: They really were back then. Safety things.
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Scott: What’s that? Early
Jenn: down paycheck.
Scott: I said it was back before they had all these like safety briefs and all this stuff.
It was Oh yeah. No, they were, they just had to take balls. Yeah. Yeah,
Jenn: yeah. Yeah.
Matt: It’s, it’s crazy what they did. But that’s when men were men, you know, doyles with balls and men were men.
Jenn: That’s right. John Wayne, like John Wayne and William Holden. They have that, they have that conflict there where, so there really wasn’t a doctor on their gruesome rate.
Like [00:32:00] this really wasn’t an issue. So he had 1700 people.
Scott: That’s actually a question that I had. It
Jenn: was a quick, and, and he, that was, and, and really only Gerson and his aide knew what they were doing. Correct. He made sure, sure. No one else knew the plans. Yes. So that whole story of them telling the plans Yeah.
And the lady listening at the house Yeah. That’s all kind of made up. Right. Right,
Scott: right.
Jenn: So, um, so he made sure he didn’t, he didn’t want other people to know and then say something or get caught and then give it away. Right. So,
Matt: right. But, but they kind of, uh, do allude to how at least the soldiers didn’t know what they were doing because there’s, you know, the part where, uh, what’s his name?
I wanna say Jimmy Dean, but it’s not Jimmy Dean. He reminds me of Jimmy Dean playing the banjo. And he is like, yeah, his name was Ken something. Yeah. And he’s playing the banjo and he is like, leaves being canceled, raids up in [00:33:00] Memphis or whatever the hell he was saying. Yeah. And you know, he’s like calling into question what’s going on and everything.
Yeah. And then when they’re going south, the guy, um, dunker, uh, one of the spies or the scouts. Yeah.
The two, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And he’s like, now even the sun raised in the east and settles in the west and, you know, whatever. Uh, that way we just come from the north. Mm-hmm.
Discussing Historical Accuracy in Films
Matt: Well then what way is that gonna be?
Yeah. And then they’re like, well, old south,
you know, and, uh, like so they’re kind of hinting that they don’t know what they’re doing.
Jenn: Yes.
Matt: Yeah. They just know they’re going somewhere. They do mix a lot of, not a lot, but a good deal of reality. And I guess maybe they figured, well, that’s a good detail. Let’s just, yeah.
Let’s make it a mix
Jenn: there. There was some of, I mean, so the men going out as scouts, dressed as confederates was true. They really did do that. And so I thought that was neat. I liked seeing that. Right. Because that’s a great way to hide yourself. Right. [00:34:00] No one’s gonna come. You wear your blue uniform, people know for sure you’re a Yankee.
Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Jenn: it’s a great way to go out and scout. And they do, like they, they do Newton Station, right, which was the big mm-hmm. Hit on the gruman raid. And they do, they show them blowing up the two railroad cars kind of alluding to, they hit the two railroads, right? Yeah. So kind of like, you know, makes you, okay, I get this.
And the Sherman
Matt: neckties.
Jenn: Yep, yep. Yeah. And so I liked, I liked those kind of things a lot. And I liked, I still liked that north and south conflict, and I liked with the. When he goes into the makeshift hospital and the young boy and, and seeing the young kids.
Matt: Oh,
Jenn: that the, the school was not real.
Matt: The
what with all the,
Jenn: you know, with all the school, the kids from the school.
Matt: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love that stuff though. That’s so good. Yeah’s so good. I think they’re
Jenn: trying to allude to those VMI students. Right? I believe you had talked. That’s
Matt: what I always kind of thought it was. Yeah. Right.
Jenn: But they film them. [00:35:00]
Filming Locations
Jenn: Wasn’t there some military academy there? I thought so. There’s a Jefferson Military Academy there.
Yeah. And,
Matt: but, but that wasn’t,
Jenn: no, but that location was used for the north and the south. That location was used for West Point. Yeah. In the north and the south. So if you remember Patrick Swayze. Oh, yeah. Right. When he’s gonna West Point, that’s the school. It’s the same set, same school. It, it was a military academy, I think until like the early two thousands.
It closed, but it’s still there. You can go visit it. And so they allude to. The students being the only confederates in the area that can defend. Right, right. Which is kind of what happened with VMI, with the students. That’s right. Right. You know, and old miss. Right. Like Right. But, uh, so they’re, so that’s what I’m saying.
It’s
Matt: like, I guess they figured, well, you know, who’s gonna be there to stop the Yankees?
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: What these cadets?
Scott: Yeah. Well then, and then they’re like ancient, you know, like [00:36:00] overseer. Yeah.
Isn think their
Jenn: mother comes out and grabs the one.
Scott: He’s, he’s fighting back. He’s like, I don’t
Matt: wanna go. He already jumps out the window with his little drum.
Yeah, that’s right. I think it’s fun. It’s a fun movie, right? Like, you know, you’re not gonna get a history lesson out of this, except that if you, if you get curious
Yes.
And you Google is the Horse Soldiers a true story, and you find out about the gruesome raid, then okay, now you’ve learned something real. Mm-hmm. But I, it’s just a fun movie to watch. Like, I, I, I love, I just love it. I, I don’t know why, because it really, if I’m being a film critic
Jenn: mm-hmm.
Matt: It’s
Jenn: not really that good.
Scott: Yeah. The characters are good, though.
Jenn: The characters are good. The story is basic. I think the characters did a
Scott: phenomenal job, like with William Holden and John Wayne, obviously the two strong characters, and I thought, um, you know, the, [00:37:00] the female counterpart, those three, they do such a good job. And then board has his, like, go-to, you know, side characters and they’re, and they’re all talented, right?
He’s got the musician playing the banjo. Yeah. They, he’s got the, the, the two, you know. Uh, Confederates that are, you know, trying to hang the sheriff and that, that whole comedy scene. So he spices it up. The guy is always trying
Jenn: to drink, always trying to open the bar.
Scott: Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah. So,
Matt: oh, that’s great. And he goes, the bar is open and he breaks the bottle in his
Movie: 3 10 18 womans demolition proceeding is ordered, sir.
And the bar is closed and the bar is
Scott: altered. Yeah. So I, I think that’s why it was good is, is the characters were, were, were good. You,
Matt: you, first of all, again, you know John Wayne, right? Yeah. You just love whatever. He fills
Jenn: the screen. He fills the screen, he builds the
Matt: screen, and then you find out he’s not just an asshole, he’s an asshole for a reason, [00:38:00] a
Movie: tumor.
They said it was, and it had to come out right away. So they stuck a leather strap in her mouth so she could bite off her screams while they cut away to get in there. And what did they find? Nothing an
Matt: asshole because a doctor went a rooting around in his wife for a tumor that wasn’t there and killed him.
Yeah. That’s why. And so that’s why, that’s why he doesn’t like William Holden. Mm-hmm.
The Steven Lang Story
Matt: And, uh, I, the, the thing is like, see John Wayne, I don’t really look at him as an actor. I and I, Stephen Lang almost punched me in the face. I said, because I said we Okay. You wanna hear a story? Yeah. Okay. We were, we, it was the 30th anniversary of the movie Gettysburg and all the festivities that we had around town here.
Scott: Mm-hmm.
Matt: And, um,
so we went to the Farnsworth House here in town and um, like I’m friends with Bo Brinkman, [00:39:00] who was Major Taylor in the movie. And so he like drags me around to whatever, you know, I’ll go, yeah. Um, and so my girlfriend Cindy and I went, uh, and, uh, his girlfriend Chris was there. And, uh, you know, we’re all sitting in this little, there’s like a little alcove, a little nook off to the side of the bar.
And so we were all sitting back there and Steven Lang and, and, uh, Tom Baringer were sitting at the bar, but back in that little aisle ’cause it was like, you know, protective.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: And somebody had a medical emergency.
Jenn: And these actors from Gettysburg, these are famous actors from Gettysburg, the
Matt: movie, the movie Gettysburg.
Yeah. Um, so somebody had a medical emergency right. In the, the path to get outta this alcove.
Yeah.
And so we were stuck back there until the ambulance could come and remove the person. And so, you know, we’re all sitting there and whatever. So we gotta, you know, start moving around and [00:40:00] everything. Anyway, I, I go up to the bar to get another drink.
Tom Barringer Hass moved out of the way. So now I go into his space and, uh, Steven Lang is talking to, uh, Patrick Fauci, who played a P Hill in the movie Gettysburg. And they’re talking about actors, and then one of them mentions John Wayne, and then the other one says, oh yeah, John Wayne, you’re, oh. And I go, I go, you know, um, I don’t really think John Wayne was that great of an actor.
Oh my gosh. And, and Steven Lang sitting at like, in the stool, leaning up against the wall, barely looks up at me, looks halfway up, like at my navel. Right. And he goes, the fuck do you know about acting? And and I go, oh, nothing. I just like to go to movies and watch actors act. And John Wayne, if you would let me finish, [00:41:00] was a movie star, but not really a great actor.
And he just looked at me and I turned around and walked away, and I sat down at the table and I said, Stephen Lang almost punched me over John Wayne.
Scott: And, and, and we, and we’ve, we’ve talked about multiple John Wayne movies. Yeah. Like, we’ve done a top 10 John Wayne video and all that stuff. Oh God, where was I for that one?
I know. Trust me. What, what, okay. Okay. What, what’s, what’s your
Favorite John Wayne Movies
Jenn: favorite John Wayne movie?
Matt: The Searchers.
Scott: Oh, there you go. This one right here. So that’s what, that’s what I was leading into. I was like, if, if, if acting chopped forever. Yeah.
Matt: Ooh,
Scott: both. This
Matt: for the Quiet Man. So that’s my second movie. See? So
Scott: that’s So Quiet.
Man’s my favorite. Yeah. Okay. Because I just, I like his comedies a little, a little bit more. Um, uh, yes.
Matt: No,
Scott: but
Matt: those true gray, I’m sorry. Uh, searchers. Quiet man. Those are mine. One and two. My top two. Yeah, me too. Round out the top [00:42:00] five. We have, uh, Shi, uh, war Yellow Ribbon.
Jenn: Okay.
Matt: Uh, Rio Bravo.
Jenn: Oh yeah.
Matt: And Ford Apache.
Jenn: Oh, wow. I haven’t
Scott: seen that
Matt: one yet. Those are my top flyer. I watch
Jenn: that. Yeah. War Ours. It was, uh, searchers. True. Grit.
Scott: Searchers. True Grit. Quiet man. Um, um, McClin Talk.
Jenn: McClin Talk.
Scott: I like McClin talk. Oh, that’s a fun one. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a fun one. I I like the fun ones, so. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then I can’t remember how about, um, so then it was
Jenn: Rio Bravo.
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: Rio Bravo’s. Great. Real Bravo is great. I love Great
Jenn: Bravo. I love the searches. I think the searchers is his best acting. I think if he should have won the Oscar, it should have been for the Searchers.
Matt: Yeah. Well, so I think The searchers
Jenn: the Birth of the Anti-Hero. I think he births Tony Soprano in that character.
He births a man who is horrible and doing the most noblest thing, Uhhuh in the world. Right. And you hate him, but you love him, right? Yes. And I I, [00:43:00] he, and he plays it so well. His arc is so beautiful and I really think that is his finest work. Plus John Ford, you talk about beautiful scenes shot in Monument Valley, like it’s just breathtaking.
He used the
Matt: camera like a paintbrush. Yeah.
Jenn: Yeah. It’s amazing. Like
Matt: he, so the thing that’s so great about the Searchers and I, this is what I was getting at before in um, uh, the Horse Soldiers is when he, he is at the bar taking his shots and telling the story. Yeah. Of his wife. Right. That’s really, to me, the only scene in the movie with John Wayne, where he’s acting.
Scott: Acting,
Matt: yep. Mm-hmm. And emoting and, uh, uh, I, I, I think it’s good. It always gives me that little twinge in my, in my chest when I watch it, but, but they ruin it when he slides the, [00:44:00] the bottle. And who lines the shot glasses up at the end of the bar. You usually put the behind the bar. Like that’s not, but he slides the bottle down the bar and it breaks the pyramid of shot glasses.
And then there’s a big orchestral hit. Yeah. And I’m like, uh, that was so good. But you had to ruin it with that, you know, cheesy Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that’s what they did back then. And with the searchers, you talk about his arc, the, the thing that’s, that the, let’s go home Debbie, right? Yeah. Is so great.
But why did they dress him like a fricking. Ard with that floppy straw hat and that tablecloth shirt. Yes. Right. It literally like, he like, he just like raided somebody’s picnic and said, lemme make a shirt out of this. Like, he looks cool through that whole movie.
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: And then in the end he goes, oh, he must have like picked up a fashion magazine.
He was like, this is the latest fashion of Paris. Yeah. So I’m gonna wear this stupid shit. And Yeah. And it just, it ruins for me. It kind of ruins it. ’cause he looks like a [00:45:00] clown.
Jenn: Yeah, he does. When he’s meeting with the, with the chief and he is wearing that big sombrero type hat and it’s waving around. It does, it’s fallen in
Matt: the wind.
Jenn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It does take away from his, it really does his strength. And even John Wayne, the whole time he is been so rough and mean with the doctor and then he goes and starts drinking and he tells the story of why he hates the doctor. And that’s when the woman has compassion for him. For the first time, but I think he’s telling that story more because he is watched that kid die, right?
Yes. And that kid can have a life,
Matt: right? And well, and the kid says, every time I put my hand down there and he just takes his hand away. Yeah. Um, I, that, that, uh, scene always kind bright his
Jenn: mom, right, right. Mom, please, that will mean everything to
Matt: you and you’ll writing for yourself someday. And he’s like, no, look at this mess.
But like, I, uh, that scene always, uh, chokes me up because I mean that, and that kid looks like a boy. Yes. Like he looks like he’s 17 years old.
Young Soldiers in the Civil War
Matt: And, um, but [00:46:00] the way he, and this is the thing about a leader, whether you’re a colonel or a captain or a manager you’re at, at a, at a corporation or whatever, like a good leader is a form of a parent, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Not, not a replacement for a parent. Maybe in the service you are, well, you guys are in the service. You tell me like a good leader has to take care of your needs. Right. And anticipate your needs.
Yeah. And when
you are down, that leader can’t kick you. That leader has to help you pull yourself up.
And that’s what Duke is doing in that scene, is he’s fatherly to this kid.
Scott: Yes. And
Matt: he’s, he’s saying, no, no, no, you’re gonna be fine. And you know you’re gonna go. But, but he’s probably saying that as much for himself as he is for that boy.
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, he’s gonna write his mother, you know, he’s gonna do it Of course.
Because he says, says or
Matt: nothing to do it.
Jenn: He is the fa the father figure for everybody here.
Matt: Yes. And
Jenn: um, and as you know, that [00:47:00] wasn’t rare to have young men fighting in the Civil War like that. Right. That’s not a rarity. And so that I did like that depiction of someone so young, um, being a casualty.
Matt: Yeah.
Well, I mean that’s, I was, um. I was going through a book called Gettysburg by the Numbers, and it said most common age at Gettysburg was 19. Not average, but most common.
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: So now I, I don’t quite know what the difference between average and most common is. Maybe one of you are smarter than I in that regard,
but look, if there’s some old guys pulling the average up.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: What’s that? There was like,
Jenn: if there was some extremely old guys who would pull the average up. Right.
Scott: Ah, see, see, right. So it’s smarter between, between the median and the mean
Matt: or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, well, but it had, it had the, um, do I have that book here? No, it’s at the studio. Uh uh, it had the average.
Mm-hmm. Which was 25. [00:48:00]
Jenn: See, so you had older gentleman who pulled that, but the most
Matt: common was 19. Okay, there you go. You got it. You’re right. So, but most combination is 19. This was a horrific battle. That’s, that’s wild. Like I’m 47. I, I couldn’t imagine experiencing a 64th of the Battle of Gettysburg, let alone, you know Yeah.
A regiment’s worth of it. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. And, uh, these guys are 19 years old. How I I, thinking of myself at 19 years old, I would’ve come home like completely catatonic. Yeah. Like, I would’ve been like Hannibal Lecter when they have ’em strapped to the board and they have the mask on them.
Like, I’d just be, they’d roll me home, strapped to a board. ’cause I wouldn’t be able to function after they witnessing this.
Jenn: These young boys never had lives. They never had no, never had lives. They never had wives, they never had, they never lived. Right. And they gave everything for their country.
Matt: That is, uh, something that when [00:49:00] I, uh, I don’t know, a few years ago when I moved down here.
I was coming outta some rough times and I decided to, a move down here would do me good because I love it here and it did. And um, but I was having a rough day and I went out onto, uh, the battlefield out by the McPherson barn. Mm-hmm. And I’m sitting there in a chair and I’m reading from Harry F’s Gettysburg first day book.
And I’m reading about what’s going on around where I’m sitting and I’m just kind of like imagining like Jesus Christ. I’m sitting in the middle of all this shit, you know, and there’s bullets flying and shells exploding and men running and screaming. And I just took a break from reading ’cause it was kind of sunny and it was, I didn’t have sunglasses on.
It was killing my eyes. And so I just kind of like put my head back and like closed my eyes and relax. Then I opened my eyes and there was these white fluffy cotton ball Bob Ross type clouds floating at a rather high rate of speed. ’cause it was a windy [00:50:00] spring day. And, um. I just became, you know, mesmerized by them and I’m, I’m staring at these clouds and I get to thinking I’m 41, I think I was 41 at the time.
And I’m like, these, these guys were half my age. And what if that was the last sight that one of these boys saw as he cried out for his mother?
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: And was preparing to meet his maker while hell is going on around him. Um, and it kind of just made me realize like the worst day that you have is way better than that kid’s last day.
Jenn: A hundred percent. And
Matt: he never got to have the bad days that you’ve been having as an adult. And so, buck up. Quit wh and you [00:51:00] fucking ditch. Yep. And get out there and live your life
Jenn: perspective. It’s a gift. And that’s
Matt: how I got rid of depression.
The Role of Historians
Jenn: Well, and I will say too, like you’re a historian. I’m a historian that our job is to make sure that they’re not forgotten the, even in those last moments of their lives, and they gave it all, we tell their stories, we remember them even if we don’t know their names.
Yeah. Right. We remember them. We rem we, we remember what they did. We remember both sides, what was happening and the, the choices and the thoughts and, and what was going on for both sides, because that’s how they’re not forgotten and that’s how their stories live on. And so I think that’s an important job as a historian to do that and to do that.
Right.
Matt: Um, well we we’re, we’re you’re right. And there’s um, a lot of ways. Uh, I think to do it, and we all have our own way you say it. I’m a historian with, I [00:52:00] don’t, I don’t see myself as a historian though. Um, I don’t know what your bonafides are, but I dropped outta college and so like, I, I’m not a historian.
Right. My
Jenn: bonafides
Matt: Yeah. Your bonafide days. Like
Jenn: I, you don’t consider yourself a historian because you don’t. Right. Im not Don’t yourself bonafide.
Matt: Yes. I, I don’t have the bonafides for, uh, for that. Um, and Peter Carmichael, you know Peter Carmichael, right? Remember him? Mm-hmm. He was, uh, the, the director of the Civil War Institute here at Burg had died.
Mm-hmm. Last year. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, he, uh, he and I always used to get into this debate, a friendly argument for entertainment purposes. Um, and he would tell me, I’m a historian and I would say that I’m not a historian. And he would go, no, but you are. Look what you’re doing. And I go, yeah, I’m interviewing people who actually did the work.
I’m not a historian. I’m lazy. I’m a I’m a producer, if you will, or a [00:53:00] host, but I’m not a historian. I’m closer to Scott than I am to you as far as what I’m actually good at. Yeah. I, I don’t, um, have the mental bandwidth to remember stories and tell them to people anymore. I used to, but once this became a job, um, and I ran, I run a business like your creativity gets s sapped.
Yeah. And your ability to remember things just gets s sapped. And so I have to rely on my skills as an interviewer. And frankly, I’m more interested in what other people have to say than what I have to say. I don’t think anybody gives a shit what I have to say, but I think they do want to hear from the people.
I, I. Interviewing fun too. Told me. Say, what’s that? I said, I said, interviewing’s fun. Well, yeah. Right. ’cause you don’t need to do the research. Yeah. A Wikipedia article is enough to just Yeah. Get right. Yeah. What you’re [00:54:00] talking about. Yeah, exactly. I know. The, the worst is when I have somebody on who, who wrote a book about a subject I have no clue about, and I actually have to read the chapter and write notes out.
Then I’m like, oh, Jesus. You know, it, like, it, it, my whole week revolves around the two hours it takes to read a chapter and write notes and everything like that.
It’s back in school. Oh, well, that’s what it feels like. Yeah. Yeah.
But no, but I appreciate you trying to lump me in with you and other people who are actually historians, but I, I, I really, uh, I must demure and say that I am not, I am just a host.
Jenn: Well, I would equate that because you make sure the story stays alive. The story keeps going right? That, that people don’t forget. And you’re very good about doing that. You take people out to the battlefield, you make sure, you know, when there’s reenactments, you’re showing people the, you know, the photographs of it stuff.
And I think making sure a story doesn’t die [00:55:00] is the biggest part of what the cons, custodian of history does. I think that’s why. And to bring it back around.
The Importance of ‘The Horse Soldiers’
Jenn: I think that’s why the horse soldiers is so important. ’cause I don’t think this moment in Civil War history gets a lot of attention.
Matt: You’re right.
Right. Well that whole theater doesn’t get a lot of attention.
Jenn: Yeah. Yeah. Vicksburg gets attention and you know, some Shiloh gets attention, but really the gron Raiders like that doesn’t get a lot of attention. And as much as, as important as it was and what it did. Yeah. And, and raids are cool. I’m sorry.
Raids are cool. Like what they do is just, it’s neat. And they’re fun. They’re fun. And so I think this was a great movie. Idea, like a great movie subject. Yes. And uh, I think it gets, like you said, if people wanna know more, ’cause it’s not accurate, then the, the names aren’t even Right. Right. But if they wanna know more, yeah.
They could look it up and, and learn about the Gruen raid, which I think there’s,
Matt: there’s a few [00:56:00] books about it. Um, there’s a Timothy Smith, not the Tim Smith from Gettysburg, but another
Scott: mm-hmm.
Matt: Tim Smith, uh, wrote a book about it. I forget the name of it, but you could just Google Greers and raid Timothy Smith.
Um, that was, I think the, I think that’s the most recent one, if I’m not mistaken. Um,
Jenn: well, I, it was a book, the Horse Soldiers that they made the movie.
Matt: Yes. But that was, that was a novel.
Jenn: Yeah. And it was more like this. Yeah.
Matt: I, I don’t know. I think that the, the Horse Soldiers is definitely just a fun movie.
There’s, you know, if you’re used to movies of your own time, more modern movies, let’s say if you’re a younger person and you’re like, you know. I like Spider-Man and all that. Like, you’re probably not gonna like this movie, but if you can, if you can give it a chance and you know, realize like they didn’t have the technology we have, they didn’t have all these things, but it’s, back then it was story driven.
Um, it’s a [00:57:00] fun movie.
Jenn: They filmed this movie, uh, in, in Natchez, so kind of where they end up.
Filming Locations and Movie Magic
Jenn: They do a lot of the filming in Natches and they do some filming in Baton Rouge, and then they film some in California. Do they really? Yes. Yeah. In Thousand Oaks. Oh
Matt: wow.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah. That’s too fun. Is it the, is it the fight scene at the end?
Jenn: Yeah, I think there’s some of the scenes. Yeah. They had to reshoot and they did it in California out at the old, I mean, you could see the old ranches they would use Yes. For like, you know, um, N Banana. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Matt: yeah. It’s those, it’s those like weird mountains. They have those fills. Not even Mountain.
Yeah. Little House on the
Jenn: Prairie. Like they used, they filmed all of that out there. Mountain
Matt: Booth Hills
Jenn: and stuff. They
Matt: used to go. Yeah. No, there, there is a point. In fact, I just caught it tonight. I never noticed it before, but when I was watching it tonight, and I think it was during the charge across the bridge.
Mm-hmm. And when they get into the Confederates, I go, wait, that looks like California. Yeah.
Scott: Yeah.
Matt: And so [00:58:00] that must be that part. Yeah. But it’s, but what’s interesting about that is that they did film it. Down in the, you know, in the, in the area where that kind of happened. They
Jenn: totally filmed it in Natchez.
Like they were, they were filming in that general area they used in the plantation houses. Right, right. To represent her plantation house, like these old antebellum houses. They were using them and stuff. And so they did use, they did film a lot of that, but then, you know, they get back and they go, oh, that didn’t quite work.
And like even the end of Searchers when he lifts Debbie up, that’s filmed in a park in California, they didn’t even get to film that in Monument Valley. I had to reshoot it,
Matt: so I never heard that before. Mm-hmm.
Jenn: Yep.
Matt: Really? Yep. If you see that, that like cave looking thing that Yeah, so they
Jenn: cut, so the cave, they got that.
Because you can see like she falls and he’s chasing her. That part they got and then the [00:59:00] closeups, they said they weren’t great, so they reshot the closeups again.
Matt: Oh, the closeups, okay. Mm-hmm. Interesting. That is interesting.
Jenn: Yeah. Movie magic. Yeah.
Matt: That, yeah. That is, uh, and you know, that is the way the movies ended back then.
It was like all the way up until the last moment. It’s like terror. Yeah. And then it’s just, let’s go home, Debbie.
Yeah.
And then he takes her home and like the movie, there’s like two and a half minutes left of the movie when he says, let’s go home, Debbie. You know, like that was it. It was just, yeah. All this adventure and then, ah, fuck it.
You know? Yeah. Happily ever after. We
Jenn: don’t need a, we don’t need to tie it up with a bow. He doesn’t do that. Does he doesn’t do that in the horse soldiers. Right. He’s not a tie it up with the bow kind of person. I mean, I isn’t quiet man. He does, but he doesn’t really do that.
Matt: No, he doesn’t. Um, because life isn’t tied up in a bow.
Jenn: Yeah.
Matt: John Ford is an Irishman. Yes. Irishman. Uh, and women, uh, know [01:00:00] that life sucks and you better have a laugh at it and a drink because you’re gonna need it.
Scott: Well, I think I’m gonna, I, I think I wanna continue this conversation, but I’m gonna put a bow on that. The horse soldiers conversation. Good.
Final Thoughts and Recommendations
Scott: So, um, I think our audience, you know, if you’re listening, I definitely is asleep.
Definitely all of us would, would encourage you guys to go watch the Horse Soldiers because seriously, yes. It, it, it’s, it’s surprisingly good. If you’ve never heard of it, go watch it. Yeah. Again, I’m not a history buff, but I watch it and I just enjoyed it for the movie aspect of it. What did you enjoy about
Matt: it?
Like, I mean, like, what would you say? I’m not a history. Buffy just enjoyed the movie. Why?
Scott: So, so I like John Ford’s style. I recognize that right away from the opening shots. Yeah. And I, I just enjoyed the characters. It was a little slow for me in the beginning, but as you got, as I got into the characters of John Wayne and that tension between him and, um, girl Constance Towers.
Yeah. [01:01:00] Um, I, I, I, that was probably one of my favorite parts of it. Canada and then, and then the little comedic bits that they would throw in with, you know, the. With the, the sheriff scene and stuff like that. It, it was, it really was the character tension and the character play that I, I personally enjoyed the most because they throw some jokes in there, but then they just throw a little bit of a serious side, but not, not too much.
Right. And they just kind of keep pulling you along all the way through.
Matt: I like Sergeant Kirby telling Luie that, uh, that third stripe or that second stripe, I forget which stripe, but one of the stripes is a tester stripe, and yet that’s the, the brandy or the alcohol for officers, lieutenant, whatever.
It’s,
Scott: they throw in little things like that. And so for, for the average movie watcher, it’s just a good movie.
Yeah.
Yeah. Good characters. That’s the bottom line. It’s, it’s not fun. It’s not good because of the history. It’s fun. It’s a good movie. And so I would highly encourage people to, to go watch that.
Matt: I agree.
I agree. It’s like, so Matt,
Scott: what do you [01:02:00] have to say? What kind of last words do you have about the horse soldiers and, and, and say to, to our audience?
Matt: Uh, well, I would like to thank the audience for watching this far into me rambling. Uh, thank you very much for that. Uh, I appreciate it. And as far as the Horse Soldiers goes, I, I agree with you.
It is a, it is a fun movie. Um, it, you know what, it’s like you’re stepping back in time twice. You’re going back to the Civil War, you’re also going back to 1950s Hollywood. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And all the things that Hollywood did, which might seem a little corny and cheesy now, but thrilled audiences in 1959. And I, so if you like history, film history is really interesting too.
Film music as well. Both shape our culture, whether you wanna believe it or whether you agree with it or not. That’s [01:03:00] what they do. And uh, but they also reflect our culture. So it’s very interesting ’cause every movie is different. And that movie, well I wasn’t alive in 1959, so I don’t know if it reflected or shaped the culture, but it is 1950s Hollywood.
And it definitely has its limitations that you’re probably not used to today. It’s not smooth. Every cut is not perfect. Every dissolve. You can see where they overlap the, the film, uh, but like, it’s real. It’s real. It’s real. Film, real people made it. No computers. The music isn’t ai. It’s all real human beings, which I’m talking to young people.
You are one of them. Made it. And human beings can make things without computers at all. Really? Yes. Uh, and so just watch it to see what [01:04:00] life was like organically. True. Before the grit. Digital.
Jenn: Yeah. The authenticity of it. You can’t replicate that even with ai.
Matt: No, it is crazy. You can’t, you can’t, and we were just editing something today.
We were trying to age it to look like old film. And no matter how much we degraded our H or 4K video, it still looked like 4K video. Like it still looked good and it’s, it’s not the same. Film is different.
Jenn: Yeah.
Scott: Well, thank you. Yeah. Well, Matt, thank you so much for joining us and to our audience, thank you for hanging on, uh, with us to the end.
I’ll, I’ll do what I can in the edit to, uh, to keep this thing interesting. But I, I really enjoyed this. Um. Because it, it, it is an honest conversation. And, and, and Matt, you were in incredibly honest with us. And, and, and I really do appreciate that if anybody’s driving out to, to Gettysburg, um, or driving out to, in the Memphis area, in this [01:05:00] area of, of old Civil War history, this is a great podcast to listen to.
So thank you again to our audience. Thanks guys. And to everybody listening, we’ll, we’ll talk to you guys next time. Thank you. Thank you.
This has been a walk with history. Production Talk with History is created, hosted by me, Scott Bennie, episode Researched by Jennifer Bennie. Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode. Talk With History is supported by our fans at the history road trip com. Our return thanks, brought to those providing funding to help keep us going.
Thank you to Doug McLiverty Larry Myers, Patrick Bennie, Gail Cooper, Christie Coates, and Calvin.
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