In this episode of the ‘Talk With History’ podcast, hosts Scott and Jen invite Tom Holm, author and Professor Emeritus of American Indian Studies at the University of Arizona, for an in-depth discussion on his latest book, a biography of Ira Hayes. The conversation delves into different aspects of Ira Hayes’s life, including his participation in World War II, his struggles with PTSD, and media representation. Tom also shares interesting anecdotes from Ira’s life and highlights the revolutionary aim of his biography – to dispel stereotypes and present Ira Hayes as more than just a historical figure, but a man of humility and courage.
00:33 Introduction
02:25 About the Author
03:13 Researching Ira Hayes
05:00 Childhood and Early Life
05:20 Writing Process and Challenges
06:02 Historical Context
16:56 Realities of PTSD and Alcoholism
31:10 Discussing Stereotypes
35:05 Advocacy for Recognizing Ira’s Bravery
27:20 Decision to Write the Biography
23:42 Summary and Conclusion
Transcript
89 Ira Hayes biography author Tom Holm
[00:00:00] Scott: That different side of research of looking at Ira Hayes and trying to dispel some of those false, assumptions about Ira Hayes
[00:00:07] so if you were going to try to convince a non history fan to, to read your book like me, how would, how would you do that? Like how would you
[00:00:17] Tom: Listen to my wife. No, I
[00:00:21] .
[00:00:33] Introduction and Welcome
[00:00:33] Scott: Welcome to Talk With History. I’m your host, Scott, here with my wife and historian, Jen. On this podcast, we give you insights to our history inspired world travels, YouTube channel journey, and examine history through deeper conversations with the curious, the explorers, and the history lovers out there.
[00:00:50]
[00:00:50] Introducing Guest Tom Holm
[00:00:50] Scott: Now, today we are in luck because we are joined by Tom Holm, the author of a brand new biography on Ira Hayes, the Native American who raised the
[00:01:07] picture the Iwo Jima memorial at Arlington. Ira Hayes, I believe is the person at the back of that group. We’ll talk a little bit more about that, but this book titled Ira Hayes, the Ackermell Odom warrior, World War II and the price of heroism. And Tom, please forgive me if I mispronounced anything. You can correct me here in a bit.
[00:01:26] It’s available now. And Tom was gracious enough to join us tonight to talk about it. So welcome, Tom. Thank you so much for joining us on the talk with history.
[00:01:35] Tom: Thank you. It’s great to be here. I really appreciate this.
[00:01:38] Scott: Yeah. So I’m going to introduce Tom a little bit more in just a second, but before we get too far into our conversation I want to ask our listeners for one thing today and it’s not for reviews.
[00:01:47] How to Find Tom’s Book
[00:01:47] Scott: What I want you guys to remember is, is where you can find the links you need to find Tom’s book or any other books that we talk about on this podcast.
[00:01:56] So obviously we will link. Where you can find Tom’s book in the show notes of this podcast, but if you don’t want to dig it up there, you can always go to talkwithhistory. com and search for either Tom or for Ira Hayes to find the links where we have this book. So you can go to talkwithhistory.
[00:02:12] com, search Ira Hayes. And you will be able to find the links to that book so you can buy it on Amazon or wherever you can buy it.
[00:02:25] Tom Holm’s Background and Achievements
[00:02:25] Scott: Now, our guest today is Mr. Tom Holm, as I mentioned earlier.
[00:02:29] He is a professor emeritus of American Indian Studies at the University of Arizona.
[00:02:34] Professor Holm has published over 50 articles, books, pamphlets, government reports, book reviews and book chapters and more. An enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation with Muskegee Creek ancestry, Tom has served on numerous Native American organization boards. panels and working groups. He is a Marine Corps veteran of the Vietnam War and has taken part in several programs dealing with veterans affairs.
[00:03:00] So welcome Tom again. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:03:03] Tom’s Journey to Writing about Ira Hayes
[00:03:03] Scott: So if you could, could you start a little bit of, and talk and tell us a little bit about yourself and what brought you to researching and writing this book about Ira Hayes.
[00:03:13] Tom: oh well, I wrote an article, God, it was published in 1980, uh, about Native people in, in World War II. I did a good deal of work with the with the Veterans Administration and the during the 80s. Particularly, with Native veterans, or for Native veterans, actually.
[00:03:36] And Got started on that did a book, came out in 96 , on Native Vietnam veterans. It’s called Strong Hearts, Moves its Souls. I did another book on Indian veterans in, in World War II. And then a friend of mine, well, actually two friends David Martinez at who is at the at Arizona State University and then Matt Gilbert who’s at who’s at the same university I was at, University of Arizona.
[00:04:09] They were I guess they were searching for somebody, uh, to to look into and write about Ira Hayes. And David and Gilbert who are very much part of that, of the Indian Studies programs at both these universities recommended that I do it. And so, Twelve called me up and said how about writing a book on, on Ira Hayes?
[00:04:35] And I said, oh, yeah, that would be great. I’ve been retired since 2009. I’m still, I’m still working though.
[00:04:42] Scott: I can absolutely believe that you are one of those folks who will, who will just keep on, keep on going like the Energizer bunny, looking at your resume and knowing a little bit of where you came from. Now, are you, you said before we went live here that you’re in Arizona.
[00:04:58] Tom’s Personal Background and Origin
[00:04:58] Scott: Are you born or raised in the Arizona area?
[00:05:00] Tom: Oh, no, I was, I was born and raised in Oklahoma,
[00:05:03] Scott: Oh, okay.
[00:05:04] Tom: the Cherokee Nation
[00:05:06] Scott: Oh. Wow.
[00:05:07] Tom: which is the northeastern part of the state. YoU know a little town called Chelsea.
[00:05:12] I was born.
[00:05:13] Jenn: So that’s probably why you wrote, you wrote a book about the Osage. Did a lot of your knowledge come from living there in Oklahoma during that time?
[00:05:20] Tom: Oh, yeah, and that yeah, I was one of my my kind of knit mystery Series that I’ve been doing Yeah The Osage Rose that was that was the one that that kind of got me interested in with mystery my the third Part of that, of that, it’s a trilogy the first, the first one was, was called Osage Rose, the second one was Anadarko, and the third one is coming out from New Mexico Press, University of New Mexico Press, and it’s called Panther Creek.
[00:05:55] They’re all place names in in Oklahoma, yeah. I’ve, I’ve hung around,
[00:06:02] Scott: That’s
[00:06:05] Jenn: and I, I tell people historians often do this.
[00:06:09] Discussion on Terminology for Native Americans
[00:06:09] Jenn: I had this conversation once when I was talking about the battle of Little Bighorn and I was talking about Lakota Sioux. And somebody had said you shouldn’t use the word sue, and I had said well as a historian you define your terms before you start, and you define your terms based on what has been used historically, what would be the more common term for people to understand, and you do that in the beginning of your book, I notice, and I appreciate that, because that’s, historians have, we have a hard time with that, because every term can be considered derogatory at some point, every term can be considered not accurate, but we’re trying to find the best terms to define the people we talk about.
[00:06:52] And you talk about here how you enter, you’re going to use Native, Native American, American Indian interchangeably.
[00:06:58] Native American, American Indian I have tried to stress using American Indian more in my grad studies. It was more current, so we used American Indian, but I see Native American is so much in the past research that it’s, when you’re researching, it’s easier to pull that term out.
[00:07:14] How do you feel about those terms and what do you find is the best one to define your culture?
[00:07:20] Tom: Well, I’m, I’m 77 and so I grew up with, I grew up with Indian
[00:07:27] Jenn: Okay,
[00:07:27] Scott: he of
[00:07:28] Tom: So, that kind of still sticks with me and and that sort of thing. But I think, I think what’s being used now, and this is troubling in a way for me because I can’t quite being so old, I can’t quite wrap my head around it yet.
[00:07:45] Is the, the term indigenous and indigenous is being used a lot now and so that’s fine with me. I have a hard time using it,
[00:07:55] Jenn: sure.
[00:07:56] Tom: Somebody will say, indigenous and, and in, in my mind, I think of it in the lower case and that, and just means the same as Native.
[00:08:05] Jenn: That makes
[00:08:05] Tom: I know that yeah. Aboriginal is not is not used more at all, although it was used, a hundred, a hundred years ago. NaTive, Native American that’s a pretty good term. Up in Canada, they use First Nations.
[00:08:22] Jenn: Yes.
[00:08:23] Tom: So that’s I, I just, I think that it’s all okay.
[00:08:28] All these terms are fine. I don’t care. I I know, I know who I am so it’s okay.
[00:08:35] Ira Hayes’ Background and the Iconic Iwo Jima Photograph
[00:08:35] Jenn: So when we talk about Ira Hayes, he’s not, is he of the Cherokee Nation?
[00:08:41] Tom: No. He was Akiel. Autum.
[00:08:43] Jenn: O’odham. Okay. And is that from Arizona?
[00:08:47] Tom: yeah, that, that’s from Arizona. They’re from Arizona. They’re formally called. Well some people still do call themselves Pima.
[00:08:56] Jenn: Okay.
[00:08:57] Tom: And, but I, I use the term Ocumel O’odham through that because that’s the original, that’s their original name.
[00:09:05] So I use that. And I was just up there very recently gave a little talk at, at the Ira Hayes Library in Sacaton, Arizona, which is on, on the Gila River Reservation, and the Gila River Reservation is where he came from. He was actually born in Sacaton, and he moved to a place called Bapchule, and that was all on the Gila River Reservation.
[00:09:32] Scott: Now, I, I believe when I was reading the, some of the summary notes and things like that. I mean, Ira Hayes received a fair amount of publicity when he, he came back.
[00:09:42] Research Process and Discoveries about Ira Hayes
[00:09:42] Scott: And there was lots of articles and I guess he was pretty well covered. So when it came to research I mean, how long did it take you to, to research this book specifically?
[00:09:51] And, and what kind, what was your kind of, some of your biggest sources of research that you were using while you were writing this book?
[00:09:58] Tom: Well, there were two biographies that were written about Ira before this one. And then a kind of combination, a semi combination of three people who went on the tour for raising, after raising the flag. That was the Flags of Our Fathers. Then you go back to Oh, gosh A guy by the name of Albert Hemingway wrote a book about and actually focused in on Ira’s time in the Marine Corps and then there was William Bradford Huie, who was who wrote a book. It was a book that at first they called the, The Outsider and Other Stories. And it was about it was about, it was first done actually in, in a book that Huie wrote about about the killing of Emmett Till. And then, and then he combined that with the, with the both the outsiders. The Outsider became a movie starring Tony Curtis, uh, but, but the the first movie actually about Ira’s life was, it was actually a television drama, uh, and Lee Marvin played Ira. Tony Curtis played Ira in The Outsider.
[00:11:19] The blue eyed Ira
[00:11:20] Jenn: I know. So we, we visited Lee Marvin’s grave before in Arlington. He’s also a Marine, but neither one of those men are American Indian. And so they’re playing an American Indian. I mean, like you said, Tony Curtis is blue eyed and I even think Lee Marvin’s like blonde.
[00:11:39] Scott: mean, that was slightly more common back in, back in, in that
[00:11:43] Tom: Yeah, it was, it was part and parcel of, of, of movies then that that they called it, well, earlier, they called called The White Men Who Would Play. Black people, black face and then there was there was of course brown face. And there was even, even at one time there was the, the term yellow face for for white men playing Asian characters.
[00:12:11] So, yeah, that,
[00:12:14] Scott: Of the things that you had mentioned, and if you haven’t heard the podcast before, I joke all the time, Jen’s the history buff, she’s the, historian, I’m the, I married into the history nerd family here, and You mentioned something that kind of caught my attention earlier because I actually hadn’t heard this, but you, you said that the men who raised the flag at Iwo Jima, or at least a couple of them went on like a tour around the United States.
[00:12:35] Is that something that happened?
[00:12:37] Tom: right, yeah, it they, they brought three of them home. There was Rene Gagnon. And Jack Bradley and Ira. Now, that, it wasn’t actually, I suppose, discovered until 2019, that Bradley and Gagnon were not actually at, they, they did not raise the flag.
[00:13:04] Scott: Oh, wow.
[00:13:06] Tom: So, of the six that were, that raised the flag, uh, three were killed later on, and one was, it was,
[00:13:15] a very good friend of Ira was named Franklin Soseley. And Soseley was from, I believe, Kentucky. And he was a young, young guy. And, of course, Ira was the veteran. Of that bunch, and because he had fought at at Bougainville before, and really a horrible battle there, and then, of course, takes part in one of the worst battles in in World War II on Iwo Jima.
[00:13:44] But Franklin Sosele helped raise the flag, and a guy named Keller. And a few others, but the thing that was is that they discovered that there were two others who who raised the flag and actually Gagnon. And Bradley were not in that photograph.
[00:14:04] Scott: Oh, interesting.
[00:14:05] Tom: Yeah, so, he was also a good friend to two other guys that, that that were killed later on after the flag raising.
[00:14:14] And so he was actually the only one who was recognized who had been actually in the, the photograph.
[00:14:20] Jenn: The iconic photograph. And the photograph, that’s the second flag raising. So that’s where sometimes the confusion comes in. Because there was a first flag raising, there was a second flag raising. The second flag raising is the iconic photograph. That is the Pulitzer winning photograph. Rosenthal, took the photograph, ,
[00:14:38] Tom: Rosenthal made it back and he, he received a Pulitzer. He defended that, that photograph for the, the rest of his life.
[00:14:47] They, they, everybody was, on him. There was a big CBS broadcast radio broadcast. That that claimed that it was, it was staged.
[00:14:58] Jenn: Yes. And that’s not true.
[00:15:00] The commander of the forces came upon the island and wanted the flag. And he asked for it, the smaller, it was a smaller flag, and he asked for it, and they cut it down. And so then they put up a second, bigger flag to be seen around the whole island.
[00:15:16] It wasn’t staged. And that’s the picture. Mm
[00:15:20] Tom: Yeah, as a matter of fact, let me see if I can, yeah, the, the Marine who took the you can, you can see it in, there’s a film, uh, that he made of the flag raising. You can, you can see it go up, and it’s almost at the same, I, I guess he was standing about three feet away from Rosenthal.
[00:15:41] And so you can actually see it go up. And then Ira, who was the last guy in the, in the, of the six, came up and then puts his weight on the, the flag to drive it into the, into the ground further. And that was captured on film. Of course, the iconic photograph that was, was just snapped, right?
[00:16:04] So,
[00:16:04] Jenn: And that and I also stress that’s not a flagpole because they’re not like bring your flagpole on the ship with them Here’s a flagpole. It’s a pipe It’s a they found a pipe and they were able to put the flag on a pipe and put the pipe up because I mean So it’s all symbolic in the moment and
[00:16:21] they
[00:16:22] Tom: a heavy lead pipe. So that’s why it took so many of them to put up.
[00:16:25] Scott: That makes sense.
[00:16:26] Tom: it was a long, very heavy pipe.
[00:16:29] Ira and and Frank Solesleeve were the ones that, that kind of brought that. That pipe up. The other flag was on a different pipe, the first pipe.
[00:16:39] Scott: So, so while you were doing the research, for, on Ira Hayes right in the book, was there anything in, in particular or maybe there was a couple things that, that you actually learned or discovered about Ira Hayes that you either hadn’t known before or that was surprising to you as you dug into this research?
[00:16:56] Tom: Well, we’ve always heard about how Ira was ,
[00:17:01] Kind of Introspective, quiet, and this sort of thing. He, he, he was to a certain extent, he, he really, he really tried to be, and this is, this is very, very much a part of the Ocumel O’odham ethos, is to be humble, and to be generous and to, and that sort of thing, and he he was that, but he also had his, his fun side and, and things like that, there were two, two stories that I, I, I found in other biographies.
[00:17:39] That he used to open a beer bottle with his teeth, .
[00:17:42] sort of
[00:17:43] Scott: Yeah. Leave it to a marine
[00:17:44] Ira Hayes’ Struggles with PTSD and Alcoholism
[00:17:44] Tom: really wanted to do with this after I started really getting into it. And I, and I relied a lot on the, on the news, the newspaper. . In the movies and the books that have been written, I think the books that have been written are really before, except maybe for the Flags of Our Fathers book, were written before they knew anything about PTSD.
[00:18:08] And so I really wanted to get that out. I wanted to, to
[00:18:11] kind of show that, that was, that was one of Ira’s problems. The other one was, was the, the notion of alcoholism. That kind of pervades what, what the newspapers and what we know about him. aNd, I had to, I had to really dig into this, and so I had to dig into a lot of the the literature on, on alcohol abuse.
[00:18:38] And, and actually, we, we have on our minds, this, this kind of, uh, this kind of alcoholism that you needed every day and this kind of thing. Well, actually, Ira was a, was a binge drinker. hE. He was a he worked in the fields, uh, and on his home reservation and that was incredibly hard work.
[00:19:04] They were, pick cotton or just, pick crops or anything like that. Incredibly hard work. And what, what I found out, of course, is that, is that everybody, I think, blue collar workers everywhere would do their week’s worth of work. And then on the weekends, you go out and have a few drinks and Ira, was well known.
[00:19:31] And so he would go into town and people would buy him drinks, uh, because he was well known. The other thing about being a celebrity at that time, and this is, this is, the problem, I guess, with Arizona at the time, is that the racism in Arizona was very, very widespread and concentrated primarily against Mexican Americans immigrants and, and American Indians.
[00:20:02] The Misunderstood History of Ira Hayes
[00:20:02] Tom: They’re very, they, they picked on blacks when they found them, when you put it that way. And the but, Ira was well known, and He was arrested, they say was arrested about 50 times in about 9 years. So, that was a bunch. And and I have very, very strong, uh, belief that the police arrested him because they knew who he was.
[00:20:35] Also, they were going on the, on the stereotype of, of of the of the Indian alcohol. So the the, the, the drunken, drunken Indian stereotype that, uh, that happened. And, and this is one of the things I think that the, the area was, they used to, they used to round up the drunks and put them in this place that they called Camino, uh, de los Huainos.
[00:21:08] And, what it was, was that it was primarily black and brown people who were thrown in there. Mostly, mostly Mexican either migrant laborers, laborers, or, or Mexican Americans, Chicano.
[00:21:22] The Struggles of Ira Hayes: Alcoholism and PTSD
[00:21:22] Jenn: I read in your book that is a narrative you’re fighting against because Ira Hayes had that reputation and people still think that today and you wanted to. I really appreciate you went on kind of a, a quest to talk about PTSD more in a way that what did he have to, to deal with this? What was available to him?
[00:21:48] And that seemed to be the easiest thing, the quickest thing. And like you said, people were buying it for him. And at the time, alcoholism was looked at a lot differently than it is today. I mean. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alcohol was a way of life. Like you think about in the fifties, everybody had drinks before dinner.
[00:22:05] It was the thing to, it, it was a normal part of being an adult was a drinking culture. And I, I really appreciate that you, because that is a narrative that you see a lot in the newspapers and even on his death certificate. And so you’re not, he’s not given the chance that it was exposure or it was hypothermia.
[00:22:30] It’s alcoholism. So, and here’s someone who’s dealing with PTSD. And at the time, people, like you said, didn’t know quite what that was. Shellshock was coming
[00:22:42] Tom: Yeah, the thousand yard stare, the
[00:22:44] Jenn: like those things were happening, but like you said people were trying to show their appreciation I loved how Dean Martin’s family welcomed him in and and Dean Martin’s wife You know wanted and he I think he really wanted to be that to people but he Didn’t have the tools to deal with the PTSD and because there’s no therapy there’s no medication the only medication you have is alcohol and That is hard to even regulate That that’s with this young man Had into his disposal and ultimately, it was his downfall, but I love how you’re working against that narrative He’s so much more than that and in a way It’s like most people who come home with PTSD and they’re not given the proper tools to deal with it it’s like a yeah, and it’s it’s really of a Failure of the US military in taking care of people who come home with this kind of trauma..
[00:23:42] Scott: Well, and, and one of the things that we like to talk about on talk with history, is, is the lens that we Mm-Hmm. .
[00:23:47] The Personal Connection to Ira Hayes’ Story
[00:23:47] Scott: We look at at a historical event or a historical figure through and I think it’s interesting and just talking with you You know right now is the lens that you were able to to look at this through right come from your your own personal history right and and you wanted to fight against the narrative of the reputation Ira Hayes had and in connecting What now as you say it because you did the research and you wrote the book But you said hey, he was probably arrested because he was well known because there was you know Tendencies again, you know against the Native Americans at that time and he was just out there drinking with everybody else but people would buy him drinks because he was well known and then he would get arrested because he was well known and then the you know is that plus the stereotype that Against Native Americans for alcoholism that all added up into what was probably a false reputation that he had to your point So I appreciate the lens that you brought to that because that’s it’s not something that you know Had I been researching this right with my own personal background.
[00:24:54] I wouldn’t been able to look at it through that same lens
[00:24:57] Tom: Oh, well, I appreciate that. I, that, that was, that was something that a lot of us came back with. aNd I did. I, you, you talk about it, you talk about it and you say, something along the order of I had my head in a bottle for a while. Yeah. And and, and that sort of thing.
[00:25:18] And you know, you, you I guess it was a little bit better for my era because there was some health, uh, by way of the VA and that kind of thing. But there was absolutely none. And, and in that age. So Ira had nothing. There was, the Veterans Administration existed. But, I mean, as far as, as far as treatment for for the thousand yard stare or, or the, or the combat fatigue, they would call it, or something like that, that didn’t exist.
[00:25:58] And so, people would slap you on the back and say, Hey, get over it or have a drink.
[00:26:04] Jenn: Yeah. Well, everything below the neck was fine, so they didn’t know how to treat it. They, they, they felt like you’re fine. You’re home and you’re in one piece. What’s wrong with you?
[00:26:15] Has anyone else from your culture, from the Native American, American Indian, written a book about Ira Hayes?
[00:26:24] Were any of the biographers, did they have any kind of background like that?
[00:26:30] Tom: No. WiLliam Bradford Huie utilized he, he was, he was really focused on going to the reservation. And getting Ira’s letters that he sent home. So, he did, he, that was pretty good research. And he did have those, those letters and he utilized those. Hemingway primarily interviewed the guys that Ira served with.
[00:26:59] And that was, that was really revealing. And whereas my take on it, I guess, was I really wanted to emphasize the PTSD and get, and then go after this, this drunken Indian stereotype. So that’s, that was, I mean, three different biographers and, what, what you focused on.
[00:27:20] I actually, feared taking on the job because I was worried that I’m going to be accused of, of bias. And and, and to a great extent that, that’s true. Gotta admit.
[00:27:35] Jenn: Every historian has it. You can’t
[00:27:37] shy away from it.
[00:27:39] The Misrepresentation of Ira Hayes in Popular Culture
[00:27:39] Tom: The other thing about it is that there was a, a kind of a stereotype that, that came about for the movie, The Outsider,
[00:27:47] Jenn: With Tony Curtis. Mm hmm.
[00:27:49] Tom: Donnie Curtis. It made Ira into a kind of a bumbling moron.
[00:27:54] YOu ever seen a movie Full Metal Jacket?
[00:27:57] Jenn: Mm hmm.
[00:27:58] Tom: Okay Matthew Modine takes over Gomer Biles thing. Well, that’s exactly the way that movie, The Outsider, ran.
[00:28:07] Jenn: Okay. And that was nothing like the truth.
[00:28:10] Tom: No, not at all. I mean, this guy, this guy qualified to go to to jump school.
[00:28:17] Jenn: Yeah.
[00:28:18] Tom: And he went, he went to jump school and, graduated, really high in his, in his class. And was one of the very, very few Marines who, became paratroopers. Not many people know about this, and, and I had to do the research on this.
[00:28:36] This was going back to it, but there were two kind of groups in the Marine Corps during World War II that, that really, highly trained in this sort of thing. And that was the Raiders. And the parachute and what they call themselves the chutes, but yeah, they were they were, it was pretty rigorous training.
[00:28:58] I would never have gotten through it.
[00:29:00] Jenn: and you need to have some kind of intelligence to do that sort of thing. And so that’s, that says a lot. His papers today, his letters, his service record, where is that all held? Is it held at Arizona State or University of Arizona?
[00:29:13] Tom: No, most of it’s still on the reservation. Yeah. And they, they do have a library there with his name.
[00:29:20] Jenn: Okay.
[00:29:21] Tom: And they have and then, and then there are fam, the family members are still around. And and of course, he, he grew up in a, in an extended native family. So, these letters get passed around here.
[00:29:35] He wrote a lot at home. But I, like I said, I just, I, I went with the more of the, more toward the popular culture side. of, of him.
[00:29:45] Jenn: Now, and he was actually in a movie. Isn’t he in Sands of Iwo Jima with John Wayne?
[00:29:51] Tom: He was. Well, the three of them, Gagnon and Bradley and Ira, were in that movie. John is carrying the flag and he’s going to, he hands the flag to Gagnon and says, Get up the hill. And then John Wayne croaks, and
[00:30:09] Scott: think I’ve seen that one yet.
[00:30:10] Jenn: Yeah. Was that his only movie that he made? That was his only experience on a set. Sure.
[00:30:16] Tom: was interesting. Luella Parsons, the kind of woman who was doing she used to write a column on Hollywood and she, she wrote one article saying that Ira was going to be a star and they wanted him to do a, a one movie. I forgot what that was all about, but it was, it was interesting, it didn’t come to pass,
[00:30:42] Jenn: So the biggest takeaway you would want someone that, I think this is a great time to have your book out way before Christmas. And we just celebrated Marine Corps birthday. We just celebrated Veterans Day. Do you want people, the biggest takeaway about Ira Hayes, for me looking at this is you just want them to see him more as a man and Not, not a narrative.
[00:31:05] What, what, what would you like people to know about him that they don’t already?
[00:31:10] Tom: Oh, well, let’s see. He was,
[00:31:18] he was very much a, well, I can say it other than He was very much , a traditional Akimel O’odham person. hE believed, and I would say that, that Akimel O’odham, they, they have a, just from talking to a lot of folks, and, and, reading about, about them, and things like that, is that they’re, one, very spiritual people.
[00:31:47] And two, , the virtues of being an Akimel O’odham person, emphasizes honesty. , these virtues are , very important. Humility, generosity, and courage. And that’s what, I’ve been told several times, that’s what made a warrior. And so that rang true, I think, in Ira’s case.
[00:32:24] Jenn: Absolutely. Even sitting with his grave at Arlington. I really felt that about him. Especially the courage, but the humility. If you go and visit Ira Hayes grave in Arlington, it looks no different than anybody else’s. It’s not ostentatious. It’s not in a specific special area. It looks like everybody else’s white stone marble grave.
[00:32:49] And so I think when you find people who are so humble and they want to be among their fellow soldiers Ira Hayes is one of those.
[00:32:57] Tom: Exactly. They are. They really are.
[00:32:59] Scott: I love that That you’ve been able to to again provide your perspective right in your research and kind of and have that that different take That that different side of research of looking at Ira Hayes and trying to dispel some of those So I would call them false, assumptions and kind of reputations about Ira Hayes so one of the things I like to ask is like a close to wrap up question here,
[00:33:25] so if you were going to try to convince a non history fan to, to read your book like me, how would, how would you do that? Like how would you
[00:33:34] Tom: Listen to my wife. No, I
[00:33:38] Scott: There you go, see I do that all the time, it’s hey, if you want to read this, hold on, let me bring my wife over here, she’ll
[00:33:45] Tom: Yeah,
[00:33:45] Scott: book to you.
[00:33:48] Tom: I guess I would emphasize that I’m really trying to correct stereotypes in this. And the other thing I’m trying to do with it. Is that, I, I think that, that Ira was cheated out of, out of something, too.
[00:34:07] The True Heroism of Ira Hayes
[00:34:07] Tom: There, there was one story that, that really, that Hemingway talks about that, this, this, one of the guys that he interviewed that, that served with Iran, Iwo Jima, recorded, actually what happened.
[00:34:20] And it, It appears that they were under fire from something, and, and there was, I, I don’t know what caliber it was, but there was a guy who got up and ran from his hole with a an unexploded shell in his arm. Ira jumped up, stopped him, pulled it out, and threw it, and it blew up. Now, they, at the time, they didn’t have the, the, the Navy Commendation on the Navy Achievement Medals.
[00:34:53] And they put him in for a Bronze Star. And he didn’t get it. They got a letter of recommendation, or a letter of commendation.
[00:35:02] Scott: Wow, that’s surprising.
[00:35:05] The Quest for Recognition of Ira Hayes’ Bravery
[00:35:05] Tom: And so that was one of my, and later it turned into a Navy comm, what I’d like to do, and I, and I told this to, to folks up in, up in the up on the reservation, I’d really to see see that upgraded to that bronze star and, And, they were saying, yeah, I guess that’s a good idea.
[00:35:25] So, I I got in touch with our senator, Kelly, and I got a letter back from, from one of his staffers saying that the next of kin has to do that, yeah, has to make that request. So, I’m gonna go back up to the reservation pretty soon, and, and, uh, talk to one of his relatives, see if they can’t.
[00:35:50] Scott: Yeah, that’s
[00:35:50] Tom: Go, go, yeah, go ahead, Kelly, for a while.
[00:35:53] Jenn: No, and I think that is a hundred percent true because as a historian and as somebody who has done, we’ve done Arlington National Cemetery a couple of times, Ira Hayes needs a more prominent story told about him. He’s not a grave that is widely visited or even on the list of, More of the notable graves and he should be he absolutely should be because not only what he did in World War two but his depiction his actual depiction on the Iwo Jima Memorial in that photograph and What he did afterwards.
[00:36:30] Wrapping Up: The Legacy of Ira Hayes
[00:36:30] Jenn: I really think he is somebody who should be celebrated. So I I commend you for what you do and I definitely
[00:36:37] Tom: Well, hopefully we can do it. I have an, I have a, I have an old friend of mine by the name of Billy Walkabout, uh, that, trying to work on that one, too. He was airborne in Vietnam. And he actually saved a few guys. He was in the jungle on a long range patrol.
[00:36:58] , and they got in an ambush and they were trying to extract his squad. And so they’re, the helicopters, they have an extractor to go down through the Through the the canopy and evidently, the, the, the helicopter itself wandered off,
[00:37:15] Billy got up and ran to, and ran and was trying to get that extractor and bring it back. Yeah. And while he was doing it. He had to actually go in hand to hand combat with, with several NVA soldiers and was wounded. I think they, they, God, they stuck him with a bayonet, they shot him in the leg and, and all this kind of stuff.
[00:37:40] And, if anybody deserved a Medal of Honor, I think it would, it would be Billy.
[00:37:46] Scott: Well, I, I will make sure that we have the link to, to your book, to the Ira Hayes biography that you wrote in our podcast show notes, and as well as you, so you can search folks and search for it over at Ira at talkwithhistory. com, they can search for, for Ira Hayes.
[00:38:01] Tom: I appreciate that very, very much.
[00:38:03] Scott: Absolutely. Absolutely. So it’s, it’s been an absolute pleasure.
[00:38:07] For those listening, thank you for listening to the talk with history podcast and please reach out to us at our website, talkwithhistory. com, but more importantly, if you know someone else that might enjoy this episode, please share it with them, especially if you think they would be interested in this book, we rely on you, our community to grow and we appreciate you all every day.
[00:38:25] We’ll talk to you next time.
[00:38:26] Jenn: Thank you.
[00:38:27] Tom: Jen, that, that that pilot was in the army.
[00:38:31] Jenn: That explains
[00:38:32] Scott: explains it,
[00:38:33] Jenn: I always tell people the best pilots are the Navy pilots when you have to land on a ship pitching and rolling in the ocean and there’s nowhere else to go.